ETBlue · June 30, 2013 15:48
diff --git a/#edemocracy.2013-06-30-manual.log b/#edemocracy.2013-06-30-manual.log
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 [19:06]	DaPonte	hi folk
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 	clkao	howdy!
 	=-=	Mode #edemocracy +ooo entropy_ ETBlue DaPonte by clkao
 	DaPonte	hi folk
 	entropy_	hi
 [19:47]	afk
 	clkao	back in 10
 [19:59]	entropy_	FYI the pirate feedback developer cmrcx is on holidays
 [20:00]	clkao	ah ok
 	entropy_	and I'm afraid I'll have to leave soon
 [20:01]	clkao	*nod* we shall keep logs
 	so let's begin with entropy_'s info on latest german pirates tools
 [20:02]	DaPonte	ok
 	clkao	iiuc, new tool 'gruppe' will handle online/offline voting? and qprobble is to be the disucssion/drafting platform?
 	entropy_	ok, I think there two main topics for this sessions: new democracy tools and improvements to LQFB/Pirate feedback
 	I can only comment on the former
 [20:03]	clkao	the qprobble notes are all in german, what's the status of the project? just designing?
 [20:04]	entropy_	the concept Basisentscheid (=referendum) is a modern approach to direct democracy which includes edemocracy
 	=-=	clkao has changed the topic to “http://lqfb-test.g0v.tw/ep/p/lqfb”
 	entropy_	probable is a separate development. we're not sure whether we'll use or just implement another debate tool
 [20:05]	s/probable/qprobble/ damn autocorrect
 	ETBlue	hi
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 	clkao	what are the requirements for your debate tool? if we can see the improrved prfb being modified to be useful, we can share some efforts
 [20:06]	entropy_	we're mainly in design phase, but we also have some prototypes for testing
 	clkao	(i assume debate tool = drafting and dicussion)
 	entropy_	yes
 	clkao	bascailly what prfb is supposed to do, minus the voting
 [20:07]	DaPonte	enthropy_: so you are working on the 'referendum' tool?
 	entropy_	the main components of the system are: user management (one verified account per member, data privacy etc), drafting+discussion, draft management + collection supporters, secure voting (online+offline), results
 [20:08]	and discussion of drafts which reached the quorum
 	DaPonte: yes
 	DaPonte	all in the same tool or two separeted ones?
 [20:09]	entropy_	the voting will probably a separate tool due to higher security requirements
 	DaPonte	i didnt get if it would be
 	ok, got it
 [20:10]	and about the ppau's Polly? know anything?
 	entropy_	delegated voting is deliberately excluded for good reasons
 	instead there will the reverse: voting recommendations
 	clkao	*nod* it's been noted in the pad
 	entropy_	polly sound interesting, they many similar ideas
 [20:11]	are you familiar with voting/answer recommendations?
 [20:12]	clkao	not fully - i thought it's just showing opinions from people you trust/follow etc?
 	DaPonte	i tried delegation in lqfb and Q&A systems
 	but nothing else
 [20:13]	entropy_	basically, instead of letting delegated vote for you, they recommend you what to vote (with justification) or forward what other experts recommend
 	DaPonte	to avoid delegation deviances i think, right?
 	clkao	entropy_: have you seen the lqfb/helois integration?
 [20:15]	entropy_	you could implement it also with LQFB by having a test-poll before the real voting. the voters could see what their delegates have voted the test-poll and copy it, if they want
 	clkao: not yet
 	clkao	but i think for your use case, it's forwarding the votable initiatives to an external system (from prfb or debate platform). the recommendation (like an improrved suggestion/pro-cons-argument views)
 	can stay in prfb or new debate platform
 	entropy_: http://openlife.cc/blogs/2013/february/reverse-engineering-helios-voting-server
 [20:16]	entropy_	there is consensus in the pirate party that we don't want secure online ballots
 	clkao	entropy_: it does some complicated things to preserve the delegation system. so without delegation it should be relatively simple
 [20:17]	entropy_	we'll have either pseudonymous online voting with cryptographically signed evidence of your vote, or secret offline ballots
 [20:18]	if more than 5% of the members think a particular voting should be secret, it would be performed offline
 [20:19]	clkao	offline voting are processed manually i assume?
 	entropy_	one problem of delegated voting is that it conflicts with secret ballots, as the critical information - whom you trust and whom not - is not secret
 	clkao: yes
 	clkao	*nod*
 [20:20]	entropy_	and voting's are bundled every month, so that members can be better prepared
 [20:21]	clkao	so, gruppe is just user and voting management?
 	and debate platform is still TBD?
 [20:22]	entropy_	Gruppe is German for group, Projektgruppe means project group
 	we're currently searching for a name for the software, but for the time being its BEO or Basisentscheid online
 	clkao	ok
 [20:23]	So BEO consists debate platform integration, which detail is still TBD?
 	entropy_	there are several existing tools which could be used, e.g https://github.com/lutoma/oavote by the junior Pirates in Germany
 [20:24]	clkao: correct
 	the wikiarguments.net developers are also members of the group
 [20:25]	clkao	wikiarguments looks interesting
 	entropy_	and I have lots of ideas for all the tools, but right now I'm focusing on the infrastructure
 	and hope to release a first prototype soon
 	clkao	i assume it'll be open source?
 	entropy_	yes
 [20:26]	and we'd be glad to cooperate with other groups world-wide
 	clkao	same here
 	entropy_	so what are your plans and where do you use LQFB/pirate feedback?
 [20:27]	clkao	so here in g0v.tw we are only using it for generating consensus for this decetralized hacktivism group.
 	ETBlue	green party in .tw are interested in lqfg/prfb too
 	clkao	there are some politcal parties interested in using it
 [20:28]	entropy_	there also several groups in Italy
 [20:29]	they only knew about LQFB, but not about pirate feedback till two weeks ago
 	DaPonte	yeah, i'm from italy. here we would appreciate a lot some improvements in lqfb
 	clkao	i assume our use cases are for small/medium organiztion reaching consensus for the moment, and for people to get used to drafting usable initiatives and solutions to be discussed on, rather than simply complaining
 	DaPonte	for our auditing
 [20:30]	clkao	so once it's being used for larger crowd and general policies, i assume we'll see the privacy issues as well.
 	DaPonte	i'm not complaining, we want to stay up-to-date
 [20:31]	entropy_	for BEO we're trying to make it scalable for large scale organizations (Pirates have 33K members, ca. 5K active)
 	clkao	if we can make prfb to work with external voting systems per policy, will it be useful for BEO debate/drafting?
 [20:32]	does the existing policy system require more change?
 	entropy_	we have strict privacy laws in Germany, especially for political organisations
 [20:33]	we have considered prfb as a quick hack for drafting/debate
 [20:34]	but rewriting it from scratch seems to be easier than integrating it
 	once you remove the delegated voting, there's not so much left in LQFB
 	clkao	true.
 [20:35]	entropy_	we're using range voting instead of Schulze-simple, so even that is useless
 	clkao	the transtive suggestion/argument counting can still be useful for recommendation system?
 	range voting = scoring options from 1 to 10?
 [20:36]	entropy_	the transitive suggestion would be quite limited with delegated voting
 	with answer recommendation you could follow several experts (similar to Twitter) and combine the recommendations
 	with any function or enrich them with further arguments
 [20:37]	range voting: yes, depending on the number of alternatives 0-3 points or 0-9 points + abstention
 	clkao	btw, how many people are developing BEO?
 [20:38]	entropy_	there are currently three main developers (cmrcx, foojo, and me), but I expect many more as soon as we have the full specs
 [20:39]	the online tools is only a component of the whole process
 	clkao	it'd be great if you can make the design doc in en
 	*nod*
 [20:40]	entropy_	yes, it's on the TODO lisst
 	the tool itself is also written with internationalization in mind
 [20:41]	do you know about the australian polly project? is it still in development or stalled?
 	I'm afraid I have to go afk now, but I might return in 30mins
 	clkao	not really. but iirc the last commit was quite a while ago
 [20:42]	DaPonte	i think they are doing a lot of job about a statistical pattern to implement a sort of 'reputation' system
 	clkao	ok. is it ok to publish the log?
 	entropy_	sure
 	DaPonte	sure
 [20:43]	clkao	cool. so ideally i'd like to see BEO having some api to enter initiatives. this can probably make lqfb/prfb orgs swtiching more easilywhen they wish to
 	DaPonte: let's talk about prfb improvements
 [20:44]	entropy_	I think it should be possible to migrate LQFB data to BEO with some script
 	DaPonte	i'm interested mainly in the redesign, out users have some dubts about delegation, but mainly find lqfb tough to use
 	entropy_	now afk.
 	clkao	DaPonte: have you seen ETBlue's latest mockup? I've implemented part of the original lfapi with more concised lfrest
 [20:45]	ETBlue	hmmm. i think i have to redo the new ui soon
 	DaPonte	yeah, i read the repo. focusing on the js and dom
 [20:46]	clkao	DaPonte: as you mentioned about timeline, what sort of timeline do you have in mind for actual use in our party?
 	s/our/your
 	DaPonte	i like the json structure of the elements
 	clkao	DaPonte: pgrest does most of the heavy lifting
 	DaPonte	but take time to understand, probably a dom tree drawing would help
 [20:48]	clkao	i'd like to come up with an incremental deployment plan
 	ie replacing some pages with the new design, and leaving less frequently page as they are for the time being during development
 	DaPonte	we have to gather more consensus about lqfb among our supporters
 	clkao	*frequently used
 [20:49]	ok, so the actual adoption is still TBD
 	DaPonte	we are using the palin lqfb ver 2.2.2
 	*plain*
 	clkao	if you can help ETBlue wiring the templates with the api server, it can be a bit more convincing
 [20:51]	ETBlue	i guess we need to convert current .erb templates into .jade first
 [20:52]	ETBlue	still reading jade document
 	DaPonte	sure, but i need time to understand how you work, how your design goes through. we dont even know which tools will use in production. for example i just find out form the code we are using erb template, that I just know the existence of, so it takes a while without a clear pictures of the differetn tools involved
 	clkao	ETBlue: how many of the mockup are already turned into erb ? and how many mockups are still to be done? i noticed we don't have much input UI ? or adding initiatives etc
 [20:53]	DaPonte: erb was used by Fire.app for drawing prototype. it should be converted to jade it can be used from both client/server side
 	but in general we should be use pure client + rest endpoint
 [20:54]	ETBlue	clkao: mainly nav bar and issue page, without input ui
 	DaPonte	i'm trying to work on main.js, but i have to figure out the design logic and what you want to do with the json structure in the file
 [20:55]	ok, if we go for jade, i have to get in touch with it. needs at least few days
 	clkao	DaPonte: basically ajax request from http://lqfb-test.g0v.tw/pf/pgrest/issue/1 + some jade templating => real template
 	ETBlue	the code in current main.js is all about ui, i guess you can just ignore them for now
 	DaPonte	they are all new tools for me
 	clkao	we can add behaviours with jquery or angularjs on top of the jade templates
 [20:56]	edemocracy is also a new tool
 	i guess there's a trend
 [20:57]	ok i should get going soon
 [20:58]	DaPonte	we made a research and a paper about edem, but it actually in italian https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YXeKcQ1YooH86j_B266_7xn90nJNNONGMp-rMwKZBGs/edit
 	clkao	DaPonte: the tuparliamanet has some step-by-step description about using lqfb
 	but sadly also in italian
 	DaPonte	we have a wiki aswell
 	clkao	DaPonte: are people actually using it?
 [20:59]	ETBlue	clkao: so the first thing i need to do is to finish the input ui right?
 	clkao	ETBlue: surei suppose we can get cassi or others to help doing the jade conversion
 	DaPonte	we had a test version since march to may with 1500 users. now we are planning to switch to production
 [21:00]	ETBlue	clkao: great
 	DaPonte	and the instance is still up
 	clkao	DaPonte: i mean www.tuparlamento.it
 [21:01]	DaPonte	with the redesign we could reach for sure a 5000+ population in few weeks
 	clkao: didnt know about tuparlamento.it , we will take contact.
 [21:02]	ETBlue	DaPonte: are you going to use the new ui for production?
 [21:03]	clkao	DaPonte: if that's the plan we should talk about incremental updates - so new ui dev doesnt block bbthe whole process
 [21:04]	bbl. will catch up here on the pad
 	DaPonte	when we will have something working, we will present it to the users. try to gather consensus
 	but the user-friendlyness for us is critical
 	especially for the 'i-pad people'
 [21:05]	ETBlue	i see... i will firstly finish the input ui of issue page
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 	ETBlue	so you can use that page to demo
 	DaPonte	if we can convince them, we will have the tool recognized for being useful, as it actually is for sure
 [21:08]	you mean the json rest answer?
 	ETBlue	i don't know backend, i mean the html and css
 [21:09]	as to data binding... i guess you need to figure it out with clkao
 	DaPonte	the important for me is that we tune on the same tools. your muckups are good, and the ui looks good
 [21:10]	sure i can use the mockups for presenting a demo, but i need it to be a little more operative. some buttons working, some mouse actions, etc
 [21:11]	ETBlue	we are going to use jade as template engine according to clkao. i've never used it before, so it takes me some time to understand it
 [21:12]	i guess after the .erb templates are converted to .jade, you can do the data binding part
 	DaPonte	for me aswell, i have some experiences with jinja.
 	i'm trying to understand how you structured the json arrays
 [21:13]	ETBlue	hmm. after clkao is back you can discuss about the template engine
 	you mean main.js ? they are just javascript hash lol
 [21:14]	because i want to have all the ui interactions set up in one place, so...
 	DaPonte	i mean http://lqfb-test.g0v.tw/pf/pgrest/issue/1 and the js arrays aswell
 [21:16]	ETBlue	okay, then while you are reading the json, i will stay on irc and keep finishing the rest of issue page
 [21:17]	DaPonte	ok, but i need half an hour to have lunch
 [21:19]	the js array should be represantation of the dom in your intention?
 [21:20]	ETBlue	np, and i will go to sleep soon
 	yes
 	DaPonte	how you plan to use it?
 	ETBlue	they are only for show/hide elements
 [21:22]	as to other ajax actions, e.g. submit new initiative, the js array is of no use
 [21:26]	DaPonte	ok, interesting
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 [22:19]	DaPonte	i still dont get what will bring data to the template... what language will read the json and pass it to the dom?
 [22:20]	i'm accustomed to python REST library passing to jinja. what's your way?
 [22:25]	ETBlue	i have no idea... seems clkao plans to use javascript?
 [22:26]	ETBlue	only knows html, css and a little javascript
 [22:27]	DaPonte	i heard something about node.js , but to start coding I have to be pretty sure about that. For what I know dealing with big JSON arrays in plain javascript is not straightforward. ok, we will see
 [22:43]	entropy_	hi, where are you going to publish the log?
 [22:51]	DaPonte	ETBlue: usually is easier to manipulate data with a wrapper, to make javascript object to pass them to the ui. Running too many 'for' cycles client-side is not efficent
 [22:52]	entropy_: waiting to clkao to come back. there is a irc logs subdomain at g0v.tw , he will give the link
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 [23:23]	ETBlue	DaPonte: i see, is there a better way to have the show/hide function in main.js done? a lot of for loops there too... lol
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	[19:06] DaPonte hi folk
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	clkao howdy!
	=-= Mode #edemocracy +ooo entropy_ ETBlue DaPonte by clkao
	DaPonte hi folk
	entropy_ hi
	[19:47] afk
	clkao back in 10
	[19:59] entropy_ FYI the pirate feedback developer cmrcx is on holidays
	[20:00] clkao ah ok
	entropy_ and I'm afraid I'll have to leave soon
	[20:01] clkao nod we shall keep logs
	so let's begin with entropy_'s info on latest german pirates tools
	[20:02] DaPonte ok
	clkao iiuc, new tool 'gruppe' will handle online/offline voting? and qprobble is to be the disucssion/drafting platform?
	entropy_ ok, I think there two main topics for this sessions: new democracy tools and improvements to LQFB/Pirate feedback
	I can only comment on the former
	[20:03] clkao the qprobble notes are all in german, what's the status of the project? just designing?
	[20:04] entropy_ the concept Basisentscheid (=referendum) is a modern approach to direct democracy which includes edemocracy
	=-= clkao has changed the topic to “http://lqfb-test.g0v.tw/ep/p/lqfb”
	entropy_ probable is a separate development. we're not sure whether we'll use or just implement another debate tool
	[20:05] s/probable/qprobble/ damn autocorrect
	ETBlue hi
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	clkao what are the requirements for your debate tool? if we can see the improrved prfb being modified to be useful, we can share some efforts
	[20:06] entropy_ we're mainly in design phase, but we also have some prototypes for testing
	clkao (i assume debate tool = drafting and dicussion)
	entropy_ yes
	clkao bascailly what prfb is supposed to do, minus the voting
	[20:07] DaPonte enthropy_: so you are working on the 'referendum' tool?
	entropy_ the main components of the system are: user management (one verified account per member, data privacy etc), drafting+discussion, draft management + collection supporters, secure voting (online+offline), results
	[20:08] and discussion of drafts which reached the quorum
	DaPonte: yes
	DaPonte all in the same tool or two separeted ones?
	[20:09] entropy_ the voting will probably a separate tool due to higher security requirements
	DaPonte i didnt get if it would be
	ok, got it
	[20:10] and about the ppau's Polly? know anything?
	entropy_ delegated voting is deliberately excluded for good reasons
	instead there will the reverse: voting recommendations
	clkao nod it's been noted in the pad
	entropy_ polly sound interesting, they many similar ideas
	[20:11] are you familiar with voting/answer recommendations?
	[20:12] clkao not fully - i thought it's just showing opinions from people you trust/follow etc?
	DaPonte i tried delegation in lqfb and Q&A systems
	but nothing else
	[20:13] entropy_ basically, instead of letting delegated vote for you, they recommend you what to vote (with justification) or forward what other experts recommend
	DaPonte to avoid delegation deviances i think, right?
	clkao entropy_: have you seen the lqfb/helois integration?
	[20:15] entropy_ you could implement it also with LQFB by having a test-poll before the real voting. the voters could see what their delegates have voted the test-poll and copy it, if they want
	clkao: not yet
	clkao but i think for your use case, it's forwarding the votable initiatives to an external system (from prfb or debate platform). the recommendation (like an improrved suggestion/pro-cons-argument views)
	can stay in prfb or new debate platform
	entropy_: http://openlife.cc/blogs/2013/february/reverse-engineering-helios-voting-server
	[20:16] entropy_ there is consensus in the pirate party that we don't want secure online ballots
	clkao entropy_: it does some complicated things to preserve the delegation system. so without delegation it should be relatively simple
	[20:17] entropy_ we'll have either pseudonymous online voting with cryptographically signed evidence of your vote, or secret offline ballots
	[20:18] if more than 5% of the members think a particular voting should be secret, it would be performed offline
	[20:19] clkao offline voting are processed manually i assume?
	entropy_ one problem of delegated voting is that it conflicts with secret ballots, as the critical information - whom you trust and whom not - is not secret
	clkao: yes
	clkao nod
	[20:20] entropy_ and voting's are bundled every month, so that members can be better prepared
	[20:21] clkao so, gruppe is just user and voting management?
	and debate platform is still TBD?
	[20:22] entropy_ Gruppe is German for group, Projektgruppe means project group
	we're currently searching for a name for the software, but for the time being its BEO or Basisentscheid online
	clkao ok
	[20:23] So BEO consists debate platform integration, which detail is still TBD?
	entropy_ there are several existing tools which could be used, e.g https://github.com/lutoma/oavote by the junior Pirates in Germany
	[20:24] clkao: correct
	the wikiarguments.net developers are also members of the group
	[20:25] clkao wikiarguments looks interesting
	entropy_ and I have lots of ideas for all the tools, but right now I'm focusing on the infrastructure
	and hope to release a first prototype soon
	clkao i assume it'll be open source?
	entropy_ yes
	[20:26] and we'd be glad to cooperate with other groups world-wide
	clkao same here
	entropy_ so what are your plans and where do you use LQFB/pirate feedback?
	[20:27] clkao so here in g0v.tw we are only using it for generating consensus for this decetralized hacktivism group.
	ETBlue green party in .tw are interested in lqfg/prfb too
	clkao there are some politcal parties interested in using it
	[20:28] entropy_ there also several groups in Italy
	[20:29] they only knew about LQFB, but not about pirate feedback till two weeks ago
	DaPonte yeah, i'm from italy. here we would appreciate a lot some improvements in lqfb
	clkao i assume our use cases are for small/medium organiztion reaching consensus for the moment, and for people to get used to drafting usable initiatives and solutions to be discussed on, rather than simply complaining
	DaPonte for our auditing
	[20:30] clkao so once it's being used for larger crowd and general policies, i assume we'll see the privacy issues as well.
	DaPonte i'm not complaining, we want to stay up-to-date
	[20:31] entropy_ for BEO we're trying to make it scalable for large scale organizations (Pirates have 33K members, ca. 5K active)
	clkao if we can make prfb to work with external voting systems per policy, will it be useful for BEO debate/drafting?
	[20:32] does the existing policy system require more change?
	entropy_ we have strict privacy laws in Germany, especially for political organisations
	[20:33] we have considered prfb as a quick hack for drafting/debate
	[20:34] but rewriting it from scratch seems to be easier than integrating it
	once you remove the delegated voting, there's not so much left in LQFB
	clkao true.
	[20:35] entropy_ we're using range voting instead of Schulze-simple, so even that is useless
	clkao the transtive suggestion/argument counting can still be useful for recommendation system?
	range voting = scoring options from 1 to 10?
	[20:36] entropy_ the transitive suggestion would be quite limited with delegated voting
	with answer recommendation you could follow several experts (similar to Twitter) and combine the recommendations
	with any function or enrich them with further arguments
	[20:37] range voting: yes, depending on the number of alternatives 0-3 points or 0-9 points + abstention
	clkao btw, how many people are developing BEO?
	[20:38] entropy_ there are currently three main developers (cmrcx, foojo, and me), but I expect many more as soon as we have the full specs
	[20:39] the online tools is only a component of the whole process
	clkao it'd be great if you can make the design doc in en
	nod
	[20:40] entropy_ yes, it's on the TODO lisst
	the tool itself is also written with internationalization in mind
	[20:41] do you know about the australian polly project? is it still in development or stalled?
	I'm afraid I have to go afk now, but I might return in 30mins
	clkao not really. but iirc the last commit was quite a while ago
	[20:42] DaPonte i think they are doing a lot of job about a statistical pattern to implement a sort of 'reputation' system
	clkao ok. is it ok to publish the log?
	entropy_ sure
	DaPonte sure
	[20:43] clkao cool. so ideally i'd like to see BEO having some api to enter initiatives. this can probably make lqfb/prfb orgs swtiching more easilywhen they wish to
	DaPonte: let's talk about prfb improvements
	[20:44] entropy_ I think it should be possible to migrate LQFB data to BEO with some script
	DaPonte i'm interested mainly in the redesign, out users have some dubts about delegation, but mainly find lqfb tough to use
	entropy_ now afk.
	clkao DaPonte: have you seen ETBlue's latest mockup? I've implemented part of the original lfapi with more concised lfrest
	[20:45] ETBlue hmmm. i think i have to redo the new ui soon
	DaPonte yeah, i read the repo. focusing on the js and dom
	[20:46] clkao DaPonte: as you mentioned about timeline, what sort of timeline do you have in mind for actual use in our party?
	s/our/your
	DaPonte i like the json structure of the elements
	clkao DaPonte: pgrest does most of the heavy lifting
	DaPonte but take time to understand, probably a dom tree drawing would help
	[20:48] clkao i'd like to come up with an incremental deployment plan
	ie replacing some pages with the new design, and leaving less frequently page as they are for the time being during development
	DaPonte we have to gather more consensus about lqfb among our supporters
	clkao *frequently used
	[20:49] ok, so the actual adoption is still TBD
	DaPonte we are using the palin lqfb ver 2.2.2
	plain
	clkao if you can help ETBlue wiring the templates with the api server, it can be a bit more convincing
	[20:51] ETBlue i guess we need to convert current .erb templates into .jade first
	[20:52] ETBlue still reading jade document
	DaPonte sure, but i need time to understand how you work, how your design goes through. we dont even know which tools will use in production. for example i just find out form the code we are using erb template, that I just know the existence of, so it takes a while without a clear pictures of the differetn tools involved
	clkao ETBlue: how many of the mockup are already turned into erb ? and how many mockups are still to be done? i noticed we don't have much input UI ? or adding initiatives etc
	[20:53] DaPonte: erb was used by Fire.app for drawing prototype. it should be converted to jade it can be used from both client/server side
	but in general we should be use pure client + rest endpoint
	[20:54] ETBlue clkao: mainly nav bar and issue page, without input ui
	DaPonte i'm trying to work on main.js, but i have to figure out the design logic and what you want to do with the json structure in the file
	[20:55] ok, if we go for jade, i have to get in touch with it. needs at least few days
	clkao DaPonte: basically ajax request from http://lqfb-test.g0v.tw/pf/pgrest/issue/1 + some jade templating => real template
	ETBlue the code in current main.js is all about ui, i guess you can just ignore them for now
	DaPonte they are all new tools for me
	clkao we can add behaviours with jquery or angularjs on top of the jade templates
	[20:56] edemocracy is also a new tool
	i guess there's a trend
	[20:57] ok i should get going soon
	[20:58] DaPonte we made a research and a paper about edem, but it actually in italian https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YXeKcQ1YooH86j_B266_7xn90nJNNONGMp-rMwKZBGs/edit
	clkao DaPonte: the tuparliamanet has some step-by-step description about using lqfb
	but sadly also in italian
	DaPonte we have a wiki aswell
	clkao DaPonte: are people actually using it?
	[20:59] ETBlue clkao: so the first thing i need to do is to finish the input ui right?
	clkao ETBlue: surei suppose we can get cassi or others to help doing the jade conversion
	DaPonte we had a test version since march to may with 1500 users. now we are planning to switch to production
	[21:00] ETBlue clkao: great
	DaPonte and the instance is still up
	clkao DaPonte: i mean www.tuparlamento.it
	[21:01] DaPonte with the redesign we could reach for sure a 5000+ population in few weeks
	clkao: didnt know about tuparlamento.it , we will take contact.
	[21:02] ETBlue DaPonte: are you going to use the new ui for production?
	[21:03] clkao DaPonte: if that's the plan we should talk about incremental updates - so new ui dev doesnt block bbthe whole process
	[21:04] bbl. will catch up here on the pad
	DaPonte when we will have something working, we will present it to the users. try to gather consensus
	but the user-friendlyness for us is critical
	especially for the 'i-pad people'
	[21:05] ETBlue i see... i will firstly finish the input ui of issue page
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	ETBlue so you can use that page to demo
	DaPonte if we can convince them, we will have the tool recognized for being useful, as it actually is for sure
	[21:08] you mean the json rest answer?
	ETBlue i don't know backend, i mean the html and css
	[21:09] as to data binding... i guess you need to figure it out with clkao
	DaPonte the important for me is that we tune on the same tools. your muckups are good, and the ui looks good
	[21:10] sure i can use the mockups for presenting a demo, but i need it to be a little more operative. some buttons working, some mouse actions, etc
	[21:11] ETBlue we are going to use jade as template engine according to clkao. i've never used it before, so it takes me some time to understand it
	[21:12] i guess after the .erb templates are converted to .jade, you can do the data binding part
	DaPonte for me aswell, i have some experiences with jinja.
	i'm trying to understand how you structured the json arrays
	[21:13] ETBlue hmm. after clkao is back you can discuss about the template engine
	you mean main.js ? they are just javascript hash lol
	[21:14] because i want to have all the ui interactions set up in one place, so...
	DaPonte i mean http://lqfb-test.g0v.tw/pf/pgrest/issue/1 and the js arrays aswell
	[21:16] ETBlue okay, then while you are reading the json, i will stay on irc and keep finishing the rest of issue page
	[21:17] DaPonte ok, but i need half an hour to have lunch
	[21:19] the js array should be represantation of the dom in your intention?
	[21:20] ETBlue np, and i will go to sleep soon
	yes
	DaPonte how you plan to use it?
	ETBlue they are only for show/hide elements
	[21:22] as to other ajax actions, e.g. submit new initiative, the js array is of no use
	[21:26] DaPonte ok, interesting
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	[22:19] DaPonte i still dont get what will bring data to the template... what language will read the json and pass it to the dom?
	[22:20] i'm accustomed to python REST library passing to jinja. what's your way?
	[22:25] ETBlue i have no idea... seems clkao plans to use javascript?
	[22:26] ETBlue only knows html, css and a little javascript
	[22:27] DaPonte i heard something about node.js , but to start coding I have to be pretty sure about that. For what I know dealing with big JSON arrays in plain javascript is not straightforward. ok, we will see
	[22:43] entropy_ hi, where are you going to publish the log?
	[22:51] DaPonte ETBlue: usually is easier to manipulate data with a wrapper, to make javascript object to pass them to the ui. Running too many 'for' cycles client-side is not efficent
	[22:52] entropy_: waiting to clkao to come back. there is a irc logs subdomain at g0v.tw , he will give the link
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	[23:23] ETBlue DaPonte: i see, is there a better way to have the show/hide function in main.js done? a lot of for loops there too... lol
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