KarbonDallas · August 29, 2015 14:19
diff --git a/gistfile1.txt b/gistfile1.txt
 [email protected] (freenode)                                                                            
 18:59 -!- Irssi: Starting query in freenode with buu
 18:59 <emilyrose> who do I speak to about being added to the access list for ##javascript?
 18:59 <emilyrose> is that still you? :P
 18:59 <buu> uh
 18:59 <buu> Technically yes
 18:59 <emilyrose> cool
 18:59 <emilyrose> I'd like the ability to moderate the channel
 19:00 <emilyrose> there are far too many trolls that seem to go unchecked
 19:00 <emilyrose> and I have several years of experience
 19:00 <emilyrose> `/msg chanserv access ##javascript add nexxy +AOefor` should do it
 19:03 <buu> oh
 19:03 <buu> Like who?
 19:03 <emilyrose> as of right now Agamemnus is being extremely disruptive
 19:04 <emilyrose> I would have had a private conversation with them by now if I was a moderator
 19:04 <emilyrose> which has a fairly high success rate at preventing further issues
 19:04 <emilyrose> I'm happy to provide references if you really need them
 19:08 <emilyrose> gkatsev
 19:08 <emilyrose> isaacs
 19:08 <emilyrose> aria
 19:09 <emilyrose> Sorella
 19:09 <emilyrose> 4 folks that can attest to my ability as a moderator
 19:09 <emilyrose> I await your reply
 19:10 <emilyrose> I'm surprised by the fact that Agamemnus is a moderator
 19:10 <emilyrose> they have been contributing to a hostile environment in the channel for at least a half hour now
 19:14 <buu> Why don't you just have a private conversation with him without being a moderator?
 19:14 <emilyrose> because he's not the only problem
 19:14 <emilyrose> and I've asked you about this before
 19:14 <emilyrose> you seem to not really care about the health of this channel
 19:14 <emilyrose> I do
 19:14 <emilyrose> so please
 19:14 <emilyrose> let me help moderate it so it can be succesful and continue helping people
 19:24 <buu> I care. Quite a lot actually. I've just yet to be convinced that what you're describing affects the health of the 
            channel.
 19:25 <emilyrose> that's mindblowing to me
 19:25 <emilyrose> your channel is one of the most toxic channels I've been in
 19:25 <emilyrose> (short of #rails or #rubyonrails)
 19:25 <buu> At the risk of normalizing behaviour, most of them are worse.
 19:26 <emilyrose> does that make it OK to you?
 19:29 <emilyrose> well I guess we will continue to have this conversation until you either make me a moderator or ban me from the 
                  channel
 19:29 <buu> Good communication style.
 19:30 <emilyrose> what do you mean by that?
 19:30 <buu> Perhaps you could try rational and logical arguments.
 19:30 <emilyrose> have you taken a look at what I've said in ##javascript?
 19:30 <emilyrose> we've chatted before
 19:30 <emilyrose> and last time you gave me the same runaround
 19:30 <emilyrose> and things still haven't gotten any better
 19:31 <emilyrose> every time I try to participate in the channel I am inundated with alienating behaviour
 19:31 <emilyrose> is that OK?
 19:33 <emilyrose> it's interesting to me that you employ a combination of stonewalling and passive-aggression
 19:33 <emilyrose> whilst trying to imply that I'm being irrational or illogical
 19:34 <buu> None of that is making concrete, factual or objective points.
 19:34 <buu> Try starting with specific examples and changes you'd like to see.
 19:34 <emilyrose> this is a conversation about people
 19:34 <emilyrose> ok
 19:34 <buu> Then justify it.
 19:35 <emilyrose> 1) I'd like to see a code of conduct that is enforced
 19:35 <emilyrose> 2) that code of conduct needs to include repercussions for people that don't abide
 19:35 <emilyrose> 3) the code of conduct needs to explicitly state that behaviour that contributes to the alienation of 
                  participants is not tolerated
 19:36 <buu> What exactly is alienation? Who decides that? What are the punishments?
 19:36 <emilyrose> 4) operators of the channel should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us (not lower as is the case 
                  with Agamemnus)
 19:36 <emilyrose> do you want me to paste a dictionary definition?
 19:36 <emilyrose> when someone feels alienated
 19:36 <emilyrose> and they voice it clearly and respectfully (as I have)
 19:36 <emilyrose> *that* is alienation
 19:37 <emilyrose> also, punishment is an inappropriate term
 19:37 <emilyrose> the focus is on sustaining a positive community culture
 19:38 <emilyrose> the way that happens in IRC is by making use of the access system provided by the network
 19:38 <emilyrose> I can tell you how it works in #node.js if you're curious
 19:38 <emilyrose> it's been very effective and has resulted in the vast majority of users self-policing
 19:38 <emilyrose> and a drastic reduction in the necessity for moderator action
 19:40 <emilyrose> so here's how things usually go in #node.js
 19:41 <emilyrose> when someone is exhibiting behaviour that has been identified as harmful by an operator
 19:41 <emilyrose> that operator will generally approach the user in private message
 19:41 <emilyrose> and explain to them why their behaviour is problematic and what is expected of them (and everyone else)
 19:41 <emilyrose> the vast majority of users never need any other intervention
 19:41 <emilyrose> those that do are almost immediately identifiable by way of their inflammatory response
 19:41 <emilyrose> those that escalate are kicked
 19:42 <emilyrose> if they come back and continue they are then banned
 19:42 <emilyrose> this happens very rarely
 19:42 <emilyrose> and we have few instances of problematic behaviour going un-moderated
 19:43 <emilyrose> this is with a moderator list comparable to that of ##javascript's
 19:43 <emilyrose> which tells me that it isn't a lack of resources 
 19:43 <emilyrose> but a lack of concern
 19:43 <emilyrose> on your part
 19:43 <emilyrose> which is why I am being so adamant
 19:43 <emilyrose> if you care as much as you say you do
 19:43 <emilyrose> fix it
 19:44 <emilyrose> if a moderator went on a tangent like the one Agamemnus just went on, they would be immediately deposed
 19:45 <emilyrose> I'm not saying that is what you need to do, but trying to help give you some perspective on how #node.js has 
                  maintained itself as a successful and inclusive community support channel
 19:49 <emilyrose> what do you think?
 19:56 <buu> I think I'm uncomfortable with the definition of 'alienation' you see to be using.
 19:56 <emilyrose> what about it makes you uncomfortable?
 19:56 <buu> The rest is generic irc moderation.
 19:56 <emilyrose> we agree on that
 19:56 <buu> Probably the lack of specificity.
 19:56 <emilyrose> which makes it even more baffling to me that there is no moderation
 19:56 <emilyrose> it sounds to me like what you call 'specificity' I call 'agency'
 19:56 <emilyrose> if someone is telling you they feel alienated
 19:57 <emilyrose> chances are, they do.
 19:57 <buu> And?
 19:57 <emilyrose> and more often than not, there is a perfectly legitimate reason for it
 19:57 <emilyrose> which needs to be addressed
 19:57 <emilyrose> you seem to be making the case that it's OK for people to feel alienated
 19:57 <emilyrose> is that true?
 19:57 <buu> So presumably they can express their feelings in a way likely to engender change
 19:57 <emilyrose> what ways do you view as likely to engender change?
 19:58 <buu> Positive, specific feedback based communication.
 19:59 <emilyrose> you mean like the discussion I had in the channel just now?
 19:59 <buu> Let me use a specific example from my perspective. I am highly uncomfortable with the idea of harassing someone over
            using the term guys.
 19:59 <emilyrose> why?
 19:59 <emilyrose> also, I'm uncomfrotable with your use of the term 'harassing'
 19:59 <buu> I know.
 19:59 <buu> That's why I used it.
 19:59 <emilyrose> nothing that was said in response to the use of 'guys' was harassment
 19:59 <emilyrose> are you trying to troll me?
 19:59 <buu> I think the person in question felt harassed.
 19:59 <emilyrose> but why?
 19:59 <buu> Because he told me so.
 20:00 <emilyrose> sure
 20:00 <emilyrose> understandable
 20:00 <emilyrose> I'm asking, why did that situation come about?
 20:00 <emilyrose> because he defended his right to be offensive
 20:00 <buu> Are you saying the term guys is offensive?
 20:01 <emilyrose> when used as a 'gender neutral' greeting for a channel of people of varying genders
 20:01 <emilyrose> absolutely
 20:01 <buu> So is that the sort of thing a single person gets to make the decision on?
 20:01 <emilyrose> is that a relevant question?
 20:01 <buu> Yes
 20:01 <emilyrose> many people made that decision just now
 20:02 <emilyrose> I invite you to re-read the scrollback if oyu think I was the only one that took issue to it
 20:02 <buu> I read it.
 20:02 <emilyrose> and you still maintain I was alone in that issue?
 20:02 <buu> No.
 20:02 <buu> I'm asking where you draw the line.
 20:02 <emilyrose> ok, fair enough
 20:02 <emilyrose> speaking from my personal experience
 20:03 <emilyrose> if someone is offended 
 20:03 <emilyrose> even one person
 20:03 <emilyrose> I will make every effort I can to make them not feel offended
 20:03 <emilyrose> even if I feel like they're being unreasonable
 20:03 <emilyrose> which is rare
 20:03 <emilyrose> the vast majority of people are very reasonable about these things
 20:03 <emilyrose> it sounds like you're trying to elude to the 'slippery slope' argument
 20:08 <buu> Its a concern.
 20:09 <emilyrose> a mostly imaginary one
 20:09 <buu> But its more a question of where one person's right to be offended trumps another person's "free speech" for lack of 
            a better term
 20:09 <emilyrose> ok
 20:09 <emilyrose> it's less about a right to be offended than it is their right to feel safe and included
 20:09 <buu> And lets be honest here, arguing over the term 'guys' as a group noun is really, really stupid.
 20:09 <emilyrose> no
 20:09 <emilyrose> I *am* being honest
 20:09 <emilyrose> and it's *not* stupid
 20:10 <emilyrose> it's unfortunate that you feel that way
 20:10 <buu> Guys has been gender neutral for the past 20 years
 20:10 <emilyrose> no, no it hasn't
 20:10 <buu> Yeah, it has
 20:10 <emilyrose> haha
 20:10 <emilyrose> so
 20:10 <emilyrose> I'm telling you that it isn't
 20:10 <emilyrose> and you're telling me that it is
 20:10 <emilyrose> but here I am
 20:10 <emilyrose> not a guy
 20:10 <emilyrose> feeling excluded by the term 'guys' being applied to me in a group context
 20:10 <emilyrose> and also not the only one feeling this way
 20:10 <buu> and?
 20:10 <emilyrose> yet you maintain
 20:10 <emilyrose> that it's "gender neutral"
 20:11 <emilyrose> even in the face of ample evidence that it's not for everyone
 20:11 <buu> So who changes?
 20:11 <emilyrose> the ones causing harm
 20:11 <emilyrose> it's a simple equasion
 20:11 <buu> Even if the harm is self inflicted?
 20:11 <emilyrose> equation*
 20:11 <emilyrose> are we having hypothetical discussions now?
 20:11 <emilyrose> or are we talking about a real thing?
 20:12 <emilyrose> because I'm not the one making myself feel alienated by OTHER PEOPLE excluding me with their vocabulary
 20:12 <buu> So what causes *you* to feel alienated?
 20:13 <emilyrose> in general? or when people use the term 'guys' to refer to me in a group?
 20:14 <emilyrose> https://twitter.com/nexxylove/status/588126977837690880
 20:14 <emilyrose> so far 7 people have retweeted that tweet
 20:15 <emilyrose> most of them openly identify as 'a guy'
 20:15 <emilyrose> read the thread of discussion
 20:15 <emilyrose> I am far from the only one that recognizes the issue
 20:16 <buu> But we're just running circles around the issue. I use guys as gender neutral, including *you*. You don't feel 
            included when I say it. I'm intending to include you. You don't feel included.
 20:16 <buu> Do we just line up people on each side?
 20:17 <emilyrose> lol
 20:17 <buu> Does whoever make the complaint automatically win?
 20:17 <emilyrose> ...
 20:17 <emilyrose> let me ask you this
 20:17 <emilyrose> do you honestly feel that it's unreasonable that you should have to change even a single piece of your 
                  vocabulary to accomodate the presence of those not entirely like yourself?
 20:17 <emilyrose> honestly, yes or no?
 20:19 <buu> 'no'
 20:19 <emilyrose> then why are we having this theoretical conversation about 'who wins'?
 20:19 <emilyrose> everyone wins when we're considerate toward each other
 20:19 <emilyrose> when we foster an environment of inclusivity and mutual respect
 20:19 <emilyrose> it's really not that hard
 20:20 <buu> Its not a theoretical question, I'm asking what I can do to change your opinion about the word guys.
 20:21 <emilyrose> well
 20:21 <emilyrose> let's see
 20:21 <emilyrose> stop using it to refer to me
 20:21 <emilyrose> stop trying to convince yourself that your convenience is worth more than the comfort (and safety) of others
 20:22 <emilyrose> use it to refer to actual guys
 20:22 <buu> That isn't answering the question
 20:22 <emilyrose> what is the question?
 20:22 <buu> What will change *your* opinion
 20:23 <emilyrose> on?
 20:23 <buu> The gender neutrality of the word guys
 20:23 <buu> Can I quote definitions?
 20:23 <buu> Get examples?
 20:23 <emilyrose> lol
 20:23 <buu> Find persons in authority?
 20:23 <emilyrose> wow
 20:23 <emilyrose> you are really really committed to this
 20:23 <buu> I can quote my mom if you want =]
 20:23 <emilyrose> I've been trying to have a discussion with you about the general toxicity of your channel
 20:24 <emilyrose> and you want to focus exclusively on how you can convince me to feel comfortable with you misgendering me
 20:24 <emilyrose> this isn't about me
 20:24 <emilyrose> or any single individual
 20:24 <buu> That's not what I'm doing. I'm sad you feel that way. But it does demonstrate why this sort of communication is 
            difficult.
 20:24 <emilyrose> this isn't about the term "guys"
 20:25 <emilyrose> you are trying to make some point by way of coercion and it's frankly pretty unsettling and makes me feel even 
                  more uneasy about oyu
 20:27 <buu> Sorry, I don't think I want to continue a conversation where you feel its ok to personally insult me.
 20:28 <emilyrose> when did I insult you?
 20:36 <emilyrose> in the interest of full disclosure, I feel obligated to inform you that I've uploaded a transcript of this 
                  conversation to gisthub.com: https://gist.github.com/emilyrose/468eebf82251d86bf771
	[email protected] (freenode)
	18:59 -!- Irssi: Starting query in freenode with buu
	18:59 <emilyrose> who do I speak to about being added to the access list for ##javascript?
	18:59 <emilyrose> is that still you? :P
	18:59 <buu> uh
	18:59 <buu> Technically yes
	18:59 <emilyrose> cool
	18:59 <emilyrose> I'd like the ability to moderate the channel
	19:00 <emilyrose> there are far too many trolls that seem to go unchecked
	19:00 <emilyrose> and I have several years of experience
	19:00 <emilyrose> `/msg chanserv access ##javascript add nexxy +AOefor` should do it
	19:03 <buu> oh
	19:03 <buu> Like who?
	19:03 <emilyrose> as of right now Agamemnus is being extremely disruptive
	19:04 <emilyrose> I would have had a private conversation with them by now if I was a moderator
	19:04 <emilyrose> which has a fairly high success rate at preventing further issues
	19:04 <emilyrose> I'm happy to provide references if you really need them
	19:08 <emilyrose> gkatsev
	19:08 <emilyrose> isaacs
	19:08 <emilyrose> aria
	19:09 <emilyrose> Sorella
	19:09 <emilyrose> 4 folks that can attest to my ability as a moderator
	19:09 <emilyrose> I await your reply
	19:10 <emilyrose> I'm surprised by the fact that Agamemnus is a moderator
	19:10 <emilyrose> they have been contributing to a hostile environment in the channel for at least a half hour now
	19:14 <buu> Why don't you just have a private conversation with him without being a moderator?
	19:14 <emilyrose> because he's not the only problem
	19:14 <emilyrose> and I've asked you about this before
	19:14 <emilyrose> you seem to not really care about the health of this channel
	19:14 <emilyrose> I do
	19:14 <emilyrose> so please
	19:14 <emilyrose> let me help moderate it so it can be succesful and continue helping people
	19:24 <buu> I care. Quite a lot actually. I've just yet to be convinced that what you're describing affects the health of the
	channel.
	19:25 <emilyrose> that's mindblowing to me
	19:25 <emilyrose> your channel is one of the most toxic channels I've been in
	19:25 <emilyrose> (short of #rails or #rubyonrails)
	19:25 <buu> At the risk of normalizing behaviour, most of them are worse.
	19:26 <emilyrose> does that make it OK to you?
	19:29 <emilyrose> well I guess we will continue to have this conversation until you either make me a moderator or ban me from the
	channel
	19:29 <buu> Good communication style.
	19:30 <emilyrose> what do you mean by that?
	19:30 <buu> Perhaps you could try rational and logical arguments.
	19:30 <emilyrose> have you taken a look at what I've said in ##javascript?
	19:30 <emilyrose> we've chatted before
	19:30 <emilyrose> and last time you gave me the same runaround
	19:30 <emilyrose> and things still haven't gotten any better
	19:31 <emilyrose> every time I try to participate in the channel I am inundated with alienating behaviour
	19:31 <emilyrose> is that OK?
	19:33 <emilyrose> it's interesting to me that you employ a combination of stonewalling and passive-aggression
	19:33 <emilyrose> whilst trying to imply that I'm being irrational or illogical
	19:34 <buu> None of that is making concrete, factual or objective points.
	19:34 <buu> Try starting with specific examples and changes you'd like to see.
	19:34 <emilyrose> this is a conversation about people
	19:34 <emilyrose> ok
	19:34 <buu> Then justify it.
	19:35 <emilyrose> 1) I'd like to see a code of conduct that is enforced
	19:35 <emilyrose> 2) that code of conduct needs to include repercussions for people that don't abide
	19:35 <emilyrose> 3) the code of conduct needs to explicitly state that behaviour that contributes to the alienation of
	participants is not tolerated
	19:36 <buu> What exactly is alienation? Who decides that? What are the punishments?
	19:36 <emilyrose> 4) operators of the channel should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us (not lower as is the case
	with Agamemnus)
	19:36 <emilyrose> do you want me to paste a dictionary definition?
	19:36 <emilyrose> when someone feels alienated
	19:36 <emilyrose> and they voice it clearly and respectfully (as I have)
	19:36 <emilyrose> that is alienation
	19:37 <emilyrose> also, punishment is an inappropriate term
	19:37 <emilyrose> the focus is on sustaining a positive community culture
	19:38 <emilyrose> the way that happens in IRC is by making use of the access system provided by the network
	19:38 <emilyrose> I can tell you how it works in #node.js if you're curious
	19:38 <emilyrose> it's been very effective and has resulted in the vast majority of users self-policing
	19:38 <emilyrose> and a drastic reduction in the necessity for moderator action
	19:40 <emilyrose> so here's how things usually go in #node.js
	19:41 <emilyrose> when someone is exhibiting behaviour that has been identified as harmful by an operator
	19:41 <emilyrose> that operator will generally approach the user in private message
	19:41 <emilyrose> and explain to them why their behaviour is problematic and what is expected of them (and everyone else)
	19:41 <emilyrose> the vast majority of users never need any other intervention
	19:41 <emilyrose> those that do are almost immediately identifiable by way of their inflammatory response
	19:41 <emilyrose> those that escalate are kicked
	19:42 <emilyrose> if they come back and continue they are then banned
	19:42 <emilyrose> this happens very rarely
	19:42 <emilyrose> and we have few instances of problematic behaviour going un-moderated
	19:43 <emilyrose> this is with a moderator list comparable to that of ##javascript's
	19:43 <emilyrose> which tells me that it isn't a lack of resources
	19:43 <emilyrose> but a lack of concern
	19:43 <emilyrose> on your part
	19:43 <emilyrose> which is why I am being so adamant
	19:43 <emilyrose> if you care as much as you say you do
	19:43 <emilyrose> fix it
	19:44 <emilyrose> if a moderator went on a tangent like the one Agamemnus just went on, they would be immediately deposed
	19:45 <emilyrose> I'm not saying that is what you need to do, but trying to help give you some perspective on how #node.js has
	maintained itself as a successful and inclusive community support channel
	19:49 <emilyrose> what do you think?
	19:56 <buu> I think I'm uncomfortable with the definition of 'alienation' you see to be using.
	19:56 <emilyrose> what about it makes you uncomfortable?
	19:56 <buu> The rest is generic irc moderation.
	19:56 <emilyrose> we agree on that
	19:56 <buu> Probably the lack of specificity.
	19:56 <emilyrose> which makes it even more baffling to me that there is no moderation
	19:56 <emilyrose> it sounds to me like what you call 'specificity' I call 'agency'
	19:56 <emilyrose> if someone is telling you they feel alienated
	19:57 <emilyrose> chances are, they do.
	19:57 <buu> And?
	19:57 <emilyrose> and more often than not, there is a perfectly legitimate reason for it
	19:57 <emilyrose> which needs to be addressed
	19:57 <emilyrose> you seem to be making the case that it's OK for people to feel alienated
	19:57 <emilyrose> is that true?
	19:57 <buu> So presumably they can express their feelings in a way likely to engender change
	19:57 <emilyrose> what ways do you view as likely to engender change?
	19:58 <buu> Positive, specific feedback based communication.
	19:59 <emilyrose> you mean like the discussion I had in the channel just now?
	19:59 <buu> Let me use a specific example from my perspective. I am highly uncomfortable with the idea of harassing someone over
	using the term guys.
	19:59 <emilyrose> why?
	19:59 <emilyrose> also, I'm uncomfrotable with your use of the term 'harassing'
	19:59 <buu> I know.
	19:59 <buu> That's why I used it.
	19:59 <emilyrose> nothing that was said in response to the use of 'guys' was harassment
	19:59 <emilyrose> are you trying to troll me?
	19:59 <buu> I think the person in question felt harassed.
	19:59 <emilyrose> but why?
	19:59 <buu> Because he told me so.
	20:00 <emilyrose> sure
	20:00 <emilyrose> understandable
	20:00 <emilyrose> I'm asking, why did that situation come about?
	20:00 <emilyrose> because he defended his right to be offensive
	20:00 <buu> Are you saying the term guys is offensive?
	20:01 <emilyrose> when used as a 'gender neutral' greeting for a channel of people of varying genders
	20:01 <emilyrose> absolutely
	20:01 <buu> So is that the sort of thing a single person gets to make the decision on?
	20:01 <emilyrose> is that a relevant question?
	20:01 <buu> Yes
	20:01 <emilyrose> many people made that decision just now
	20:02 <emilyrose> I invite you to re-read the scrollback if oyu think I was the only one that took issue to it
	20:02 <buu> I read it.
	20:02 <emilyrose> and you still maintain I was alone in that issue?
	20:02 <buu> No.
	20:02 <buu> I'm asking where you draw the line.
	20:02 <emilyrose> ok, fair enough
	20:02 <emilyrose> speaking from my personal experience
	20:03 <emilyrose> if someone is offended
	20:03 <emilyrose> even one person
	20:03 <emilyrose> I will make every effort I can to make them not feel offended
	20:03 <emilyrose> even if I feel like they're being unreasonable
	20:03 <emilyrose> which is rare
	20:03 <emilyrose> the vast majority of people are very reasonable about these things
	20:03 <emilyrose> it sounds like you're trying to elude to the 'slippery slope' argument
	20:08 <buu> Its a concern.
	20:09 <emilyrose> a mostly imaginary one
	20:09 <buu> But its more a question of where one person's right to be offended trumps another person's "free speech" for lack of
	a better term
	20:09 <emilyrose> ok
	20:09 <emilyrose> it's less about a right to be offended than it is their right to feel safe and included
	20:09 <buu> And lets be honest here, arguing over the term 'guys' as a group noun is really, really stupid.
	20:09 <emilyrose> no
	20:09 <emilyrose> I am being honest
	20:09 <emilyrose> and it's not stupid
	20:10 <emilyrose> it's unfortunate that you feel that way
	20:10 <buu> Guys has been gender neutral for the past 20 years
	20:10 <emilyrose> no, no it hasn't
	20:10 <buu> Yeah, it has
	20:10 <emilyrose> haha
	20:10 <emilyrose> so
	20:10 <emilyrose> I'm telling you that it isn't
	20:10 <emilyrose> and you're telling me that it is
	20:10 <emilyrose> but here I am
	20:10 <emilyrose> not a guy
	20:10 <emilyrose> feeling excluded by the term 'guys' being applied to me in a group context
	20:10 <emilyrose> and also not the only one feeling this way
	20:10 <buu> and?
	20:10 <emilyrose> yet you maintain
	20:10 <emilyrose> that it's "gender neutral"
	20:11 <emilyrose> even in the face of ample evidence that it's not for everyone
	20:11 <buu> So who changes?
	20:11 <emilyrose> the ones causing harm
	20:11 <emilyrose> it's a simple equasion
	20:11 <buu> Even if the harm is self inflicted?
	20:11 <emilyrose> equation*
	20:11 <emilyrose> are we having hypothetical discussions now?
	20:11 <emilyrose> or are we talking about a real thing?
	20:12 <emilyrose> because I'm not the one making myself feel alienated by OTHER PEOPLE excluding me with their vocabulary
	20:12 <buu> So what causes you to feel alienated?
	20:13 <emilyrose> in general? or when people use the term 'guys' to refer to me in a group?
	20:14 <emilyrose> https://twitter.com/nexxylove/status/588126977837690880
	20:14 <emilyrose> so far 7 people have retweeted that tweet
	20:15 <emilyrose> most of them openly identify as 'a guy'
	20:15 <emilyrose> read the thread of discussion
	20:15 <emilyrose> I am far from the only one that recognizes the issue
	20:16 <buu> But we're just running circles around the issue. I use guys as gender neutral, including you. You don't feel
	included when I say it. I'm intending to include you. You don't feel included.
	20:16 <buu> Do we just line up people on each side?
	20:17 <emilyrose> lol
	20:17 <buu> Does whoever make the complaint automatically win?
	20:17 <emilyrose> ...
	20:17 <emilyrose> let me ask you this
	20:17 <emilyrose> do you honestly feel that it's unreasonable that you should have to change even a single piece of your
	vocabulary to accomodate the presence of those not entirely like yourself?
	20:17 <emilyrose> honestly, yes or no?
	20:19 <buu> 'no'
	20:19 <emilyrose> then why are we having this theoretical conversation about 'who wins'?
	20:19 <emilyrose> everyone wins when we're considerate toward each other
	20:19 <emilyrose> when we foster an environment of inclusivity and mutual respect
	20:19 <emilyrose> it's really not that hard
	20:20 <buu> Its not a theoretical question, I'm asking what I can do to change your opinion about the word guys.
	20:21 <emilyrose> well
	20:21 <emilyrose> let's see
	20:21 <emilyrose> stop using it to refer to me
	20:21 <emilyrose> stop trying to convince yourself that your convenience is worth more than the comfort (and safety) of others
	20:22 <emilyrose> use it to refer to actual guys
	20:22 <buu> That isn't answering the question
	20:22 <emilyrose> what is the question?
	20:22 <buu> What will change your opinion
	20:23 <emilyrose> on?
	20:23 <buu> The gender neutrality of the word guys
	20:23 <buu> Can I quote definitions?
	20:23 <buu> Get examples?
	20:23 <emilyrose> lol
	20:23 <buu> Find persons in authority?
	20:23 <emilyrose> wow
	20:23 <emilyrose> you are really really committed to this
	20:23 <buu> I can quote my mom if you want =]
	20:23 <emilyrose> I've been trying to have a discussion with you about the general toxicity of your channel
	20:24 <emilyrose> and you want to focus exclusively on how you can convince me to feel comfortable with you misgendering me
	20:24 <emilyrose> this isn't about me
	20:24 <emilyrose> or any single individual
	20:24 <buu> That's not what I'm doing. I'm sad you feel that way. But it does demonstrate why this sort of communication is
	difficult.
	20:24 <emilyrose> this isn't about the term "guys"
	20:25 <emilyrose> you are trying to make some point by way of coercion and it's frankly pretty unsettling and makes me feel even
	more uneasy about oyu
	20:27 <buu> Sorry, I don't think I want to continue a conversation where you feel its ok to personally insult me.
	20:28 <emilyrose> when did I insult you?
	20:36 <emilyrose> in the interest of full disclosure, I feel obligated to inform you that I've uploaded a transcript of this
	conversation to gisthub.com: https://gist.github.com/emilyrose/468eebf82251d86bf771