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April 7, 2024 16:42
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寶博朋友說 EP233 YT SUB https://youtu.be/BCVjIihkyeY
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1 | |
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雖然我們剛剛聊得很愉快 | |
2 | |
00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,000 | |
但是上了質詢台 | |
3 | |
00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:06,000 | |
我的喉嚨就不是我的 | |
4 | |
00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,000 | |
我的舌頭也不是我的 | |
5 | |
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,000 | |
為民喉舌 | |
6 | |
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,000 | |
大家已經說好了 | |
7 | |
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,000 | |
為民喉舌 | |
8 | |
00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,000 | |
所以我講出來的話也都是 | |
9 | |
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,000 | |
我們不是亂講 | |
10 | |
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,000 | |
我們一定是透過某些機制 | |
11 | |
00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,000 | |
收集到了民眾的想法 | |
12 | |
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,000 | |
所以我們這樣講 | |
13 | |
00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:26,000 | |
所以同時部會 | |
14 | |
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,000 | |
或者是我們的政府 | |
15 | |
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,000 | |
也不能覺得自己就是完美的 | |
16 | |
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,000 | |
如果你是完美的 | |
17 | |
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,000 | |
我們幹嘛選舉呢 | |
18 | |
00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,000 | |
我們幹嘛要有民意的監督呢 | |
19 | |
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,000 | |
我們就回到清朝就好啦 | |
20 | |
00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,000 | |
因為他是完美的 | |
21 | |
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,000 | |
所以一定會有可以進步的地方 | |
22 | |
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,000 | |
所以我們就留了這一題 | |
23 | |
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,000 | |
請寶博和部長各自提出意見 | |
24 | |
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我們也只有一件而已 | |
25 | |
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,000 | |
不要不要求太多 | |
26 | |
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,000 | |
說一步最應該做但還沒做的事 | |
27 | |
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,000 | |
我們可以一起來討論怎麼做 | |
28 | |
00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,000 | |
所以這也是屬於我們寶博朋友做的一部分 | |
29 | |
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,000 | |
邀請到部長來談 | |
30 | |
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,000 | |
太棒了 | |
31 | |
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,000 | |
我覺得就是順序上面 | |
32 | |
00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,000 | |
在質詢之後來錄這一集 | |
33 | |
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:18,000 | |
哈囉 歡迎來到寶博朋友說 | |
34 | |
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,000 | |
我是葛如鈞寶博士 | |
35 | |
00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,000 | |
大家有聽出我的聲音有點顫抖嗎 | |
36 | |
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,000 | |
因為今天的來賓 | |
37 | |
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,000 | |
他的腦波有點強 | |
38 | |
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,000 | |
因應寶博科技立委的新身份 | |
39 | |
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,000 | |
節目上近期開始也會有一些 | |
40 | |
00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,000 | |
公民議題的討論 | |
41 | |
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,000 | |
如果希望可以讓科技 | |
42 | |
00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,000 | |
和我們的民主社會有更多對話和連結的話 | |
43 | |
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000 | |
一定要持續關注 | |
44 | |
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各位七萬粉絲如果有任何想法和回饋 | |
45 | |
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,000 | |
也歡迎留言讓我們知道 | |
46 | |
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今天我們這位來賓 | |
47 | |
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雖然說現在讓我非常的顫抖 | |
48 | |
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很緊張 但其實前幾集 | |
49 | |
00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,000 | |
不只是曾經在節目上被cue到 | |
50 | |
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,000 | |
而且其實我們也跟他一起錄過音 | |
51 | |
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:54,000 | |
但是我們很長一段時間 | |
52 | |
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,000 | |
都在等待著他 | |
53 | |
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,000 | |
今天總算再次邀請到本人 | |
54 | |
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,000 | |
親臨現場 馬上就來歡迎今天的 | |
55 | |
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:02,000 | |
大來賓 數位發展部 | |
56 | |
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,000 | |
部長唐鳳 | |
57 | |
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,000 | |
很高興來這邊 | |
58 | |
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,000 | |
我們2020年的時候我還是政委 | |
59 | |
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,000 | |
今天就是部長 | |
60 | |
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,000 | |
今天真的很開心 我們其實之前 | |
61 | |
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,000 | |
好像是在行政院的政務委員的辦公室 | |
62 | |
00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,000 | |
曾經有錄過音 | |
63 | |
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,000 | |
那一次你好像還剛開始 | |
64 | |
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,000 | |
玩了一段時間VR | |
65 | |
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,000 | |
然後 | |
66 | |
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也有很多新的想法 | |
67 | |
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,000 | |
在政務委員的辦公室裡面 | |
68 | |
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持續的跟公民社群協作 | |
69 | |
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,000 | |
現在換了一個地方 | |
70 | |
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,000 | |
我相信也是持續跟公民社群協作 | |
71 | |
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,000 | |
我們不管誰來 | |
72 | |
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,000 | |
不管你未來 | |
73 | |
00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,000 | |
有什麼樣的持續的角色 | |
74 | |
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,000 | |
還是新的角色 | |
75 | |
00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,000 | |
我們都還是要照樣來起底一下 | |
76 | |
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,000 | |
唐鳳 | |
77 | |
00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,000 | |
現在也有人說他是天才部長 | |
78 | |
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,000 | |
1981年 | |
79 | |
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,000 | |
1981年我們其實是同年 | |
80 | |
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,000 | |
你知道嗎 你本來知道嗎 | |
81 | |
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,000 | |
本來就知道 | |
82 | |
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,000 | |
我們那時候2014年在那個虛擬世界的 | |
83 | |
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對不對 | |
84 | |
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,000 | |
我們跟那個十二指等事務官介紹的時候 | |
85 | |
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,000 | |
就有講過 就發現 | |
86 | |
00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,000 | |
好啦 1981年4月生 | |
87 | |
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,000 | |
那我就不要講他幾號 | |
88 | |
00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,000 | |
怕大家就查他的星座 | |
89 | |
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,000 | |
出身台灣台北市的 | |
90 | |
00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,000 | |
自由軟體程式設計師 | |
91 | |
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,000 | |
以及現任的政治人物 | |
92 | |
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,000 | |
我們錄音的時候是現任 | |
93 | |
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,000 | |
現任數 不好笑嗎 | |
94 | |
00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,000 | |
你們怎麼都沒有聽出這個幽默的部分 | |
95 | |
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,000 | |
你也是現任政治人物 | |
96 | |
00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,000 | |
好啦 是出身 | |
97 | |
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,000 | |
台灣台北市的自由軟體設計師 | |
98 | |
00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,000 | |
以及政治人物 | |
99 | |
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,000 | |
現任數位發展部部長 | |
100 | |
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,000 | |
兼國家資通安全研究院的董事長 | |
101 | |
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,000 | |
所以我質詢的時候 | |
102 | |
00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,000 | |
資通有關的問題 | |
103 | |
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,000 | |
你要上台也是非常正常 | |
104 | |
00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:40,000 | |
而且這些都是資安匯報的成員 | |
105 | |
00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,000 | |
成任政務委員 | |
106 | |
00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,000 | |
是世界上第一個公開出櫃的部長 | |
107 | |
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,000 | |
及以上的跨性別政治人物 | |
108 | |
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,000 | |
後面我就講比較快 | |
109 | |
00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,000 | |
讓你自己補充 | |
110 | |
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,000 | |
2012年參與創辦GDP | |
111 | |
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,000 | |
臨時政府 | |
112 | |
00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,000 | |
14到15年之間 | |
113 | |
00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,000 | |
我們好像其實一起在這個時間擔任 | |
114 | |
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,000 | |
行政院虛擬世界法規調試計畫 | |
115 | |
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,000 | |
沒錯 那時候你拿了一堆cardboard | |
116 | |
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,000 | |
我們給事務官體驗 | |
117 | |
00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,000 | |
簡易的VR眼鏡 | |
118 | |
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,000 | |
一起讓事務官 | |
119 | |
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,000 | |
第一次進入虛擬世界 | |
120 | |
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:14,000 | |
那個時候你好像也做了 | |
121 | |
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,000 | |
台灣平台的協作 | |
122 | |
00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,000 | |
處理像Uber等等這些事情 | |
123 | |
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,000 | |
擔任了很多很多 | |
124 | |
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:22,000 | |
真的有點長了 待會有時間 | |
125 | |
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,000 | |
你可以補充一下 | |
126 | |
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:26,000 | |
2016年的時候 | |
127 | |
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,000 | |
被當時的行政院院長林全 | |
128 | |
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,000 | |
聘用為行政院的政務委員 | |
129 | |
00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,000 | |
做很多的數位經濟 開放政府的發展 | |
130 | |
00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:34,000 | |
2022年 | |
131 | |
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,000 | |
驚天動地的時刻 | |
132 | |
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,000 | |
8月5號行政院 | |
133 | |
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,000 | |
宣布任命唐鳳為數位發展部的 | |
134 | |
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,000 | |
首任部長 | |
135 | |
00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,000 | |
很長 | |
136 | |
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,000 | |
我已經大概快速演算縮減了 | |
137 | |
00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,000 | |
大概三分之二都 | |
138 | |
00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,000 | |
先移除 | |
139 | |
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,000 | |
但是是不是有哪些地方你覺得很重要 | |
140 | |
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,000 | |
我沒有說到 | |
141 | |
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,000 | |
我想蠻重要的一點就是 | |
142 | |
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,000 | |
我即使是加入了那個之後 | |
143 | |
00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,000 | |
其實我在GitHub上面還是很活躍 | |
144 | |
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,000 | |
所以並不是說換一個身分 | |
145 | |
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,000 | |
我就不貢獻到公民社群 | |
146 | |
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,000 | |
我還是公民社群的一部分 | |
147 | |
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,000 | |
這一點我們還是要Give me five | |
148 | |
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,000 | |
因為我反而加入了 | |
149 | |
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,000 | |
這個立院區塊鏈 | |
150 | |
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,000 | |
立院鏈以後 | |
151 | |
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,000 | |
我反而GitHub更活躍了 | |
152 | |
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,000 | |
是是 | |
153 | |
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,000 | |
之前都偷懶 | |
154 | |
00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,000 | |
那因為進來以後 | |
155 | |
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,000 | |
我就開始做一些開放開源的 | |
156 | |
00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,000 | |
for未來有更多阿宅立委進來的時候 | |
157 | |
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,000 | |
他不用就是從零開始 | |
158 | |
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,000 | |
所以做一些網站的計畫 | |
159 | |
00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,000 | |
然後組織稿的專案 | |
160 | |
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,000 | |
我們現在組織稿AI功能 | |
161 | |
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,000 | |
我還有收到網友說 | |
162 | |
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,000 | |
請問這個葛委員在threads上說的PR Approve | |
163 | |
00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,000 | |
PR是什麼意思 | |
164 | |
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:48,000 | |
所以我們一起都在跟這個社會一起成長交流 | |
165 | |
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:54,000 | |
所以我也期待自己成為開發者兼Policy Making的公僕 | |
166 | |
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,000 | |
就是所謂的政策制定協作監督者 | |
167 | |
00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,000 | |
但同時也希望自己持續是一個開發者 | |
168 | |
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:06,000 | |
那我們現在就來讓數位發展部的這個算是創部部長 | |
169 | |
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,000 | |
當然是行政院院長任命 | |
170 | |
00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,000 | |
可不可以跟我們介紹一下 | |
171 | |
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,000 | |
數位發展部其實大家現在印象很深 | |
172 | |
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,000 | |
因為數位跟科技真的離我們生活很近 | |
173 | |
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,000 | |
那也非常多的期待 | |
174 | |
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,000 | |
但其實也才創立好像一年 | |
175 | |
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,000 | |
一年半其實等於一個startup | |
176 | |
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,000 | |
有時候說一年半載 | |
177 | |
00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,000 | |
就是剛好是一個不長也不短的時間 | |
178 | |
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 | |
相信可能很多聽眾很關注 | |
179 | |
00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,000 | |
但是不是太確定或真正的了解在做什麼 | |
180 | |
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,000 | |
有時候你覺得說這怎麼沒做 | |
181 | |
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,000 | |
可能不是他負責的 | |
182 | |
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,000 | |
這個怎麼做得不夠好 | |
183 | |
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,000 | |
那個其實很可能他們有些新的計畫要處理 | |
184 | |
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,000 | |
是不是可以先請部長跟我們簡單介紹一下 | |
185 | |
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,000 | |
數位發展部到底在做什麼 | |
186 | |
00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,000 | |
同時可不可以開宗明義告訴我們 | |
187 | |
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:52,000 | |
我們現在官方到底要叫數位部還是數發部 | |
188 | |
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,000 | |
都可以 | |
189 | |
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,000 | |
我們自己是叫數位部 | |
190 | |
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,000 | |
但是叫數發部的話 | |
191 | |
00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:59,000 | |
因為我們有三發 | |
192 | |
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,000 | |
就是設發 產發 土發 | |
193 | |
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,000 | |
這也是一個很好記的方法 | |
194 | |
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,000 | |
介紹一下數位發展部在做什麼 | |
195 | |
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:09,000 | |
我記得2020年總統大選的時候 | |
196 | |
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,000 | |
要成立這個中央級的二級機關 | |
197 | |
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,000 | |
來幫忙做數位創新轉型跟安全 | |
198 | |
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,000 | |
這個是兩黨共同政見 | |
199 | |
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,000 | |
所以像韓國瑜張善政這一組 | |
200 | |
00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,000 | |
也提出說要有一個專責的 | |
201 | |
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,000 | |
叫數位創新委員會 | |
202 | |
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,000 | |
希望說像電子簽章這種 | |
203 | |
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,000 | |
以前是放在經濟部 | |
204 | |
00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,000 | |
經濟部可能沒有辦法用整個部的力量 | |
205 | |
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,000 | |
去推動所有別的部去做電子文件電子簽章 | |
206 | |
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:36,000 | |
也有很多別的 | |
207 | |
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,000 | |
在當時他們舉了很多例子 | |
208 | |
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,000 | |
像金融或者其他部分 | |
209 | |
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,000 | |
要導入這些智慧科技的時候 | |
210 | |
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,000 | |
都不會是每一個部長他最重要的那件事 | |
211 | |
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,000 | |
所以他們覺得需要一個新的二級機關 | |
212 | |
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:53,000 | |
當時蔡英文總統的連任政見也是要成立這個 | |
213 | |
00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,000 | |
我想在一開始大家數位發展部 | |
214 | |
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:57,000 | |
有發展這個字 | |
215 | |
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,000 | |
其實是希望我們推動像電子簽章法 | |
216 | |
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,000 | |
這樣子的一些創新的方案 | |
217 | |
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,000 | |
但是到實際在籌備的時候 | |
218 | |
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,000 | |
就發生烏克蘭的事情 | |
219 | |
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:07,000 | |
這個時候大家就發現說 | |
220 | |
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,000 | |
原來這些阿宅 | |
221 | |
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,000 | |
其實在這種時候也是很有用 | |
222 | |
00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,000 | |
不管是透過比特幣來幫助烏克蘭 | |
223 | |
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,000 | |
或者是說透過IPFS Web3的科技 | |
224 | |
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,000 | |
來幫助他們備份等等 | |
225 | |
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,000 | |
所以就是這種叫韌性 | |
226 | |
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,000 | |
受到打擊之後快速恢復 | |
227 | |
00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,000 | |
這件事情好像數位也很有用 | |
228 | |
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,000 | |
所以我們底下的兩個屬 | |
229 | |
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,000 | |
資通安全署負責韌性資安的部分 | |
230 | |
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:33,000 | |
我們的數位產業署來負責創新的部分 | |
231 | |
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,000 | |
這兩個再加上數位發展部本身 | |
232 | |
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:40,000 | |
去做像平寬或者是像WiFi 6E的開放 | |
233 | |
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,000 | |
或者是發6000這種公共服務等等 | |
234 | |
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,000 | |
那就是設發 產發 突發 | |
235 | |
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,000 | |
加在一起變成我們的數位部 | |
236 | |
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,000 | |
這個我覺得大家聽完以後 | |
237 | |
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,000 | |
應該會開始有一點了解 | |
238 | |
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,000 | |
但是對於工程師來講 | |
239 | |
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,000 | |
真正了解一個平台 | |
240 | |
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,000 | |
或解決方案最好的方法 | |
241 | |
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,000 | |
就是看Tutorial或Example | |
242 | |
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,000 | |
看範例 | |
243 | |
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,000 | |
所以我想是大家也會想要知道 | |
244 | |
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,000 | |
那有沒有什麼樣的例子 | |
245 | |
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,000 | |
是你們做過的 | |
246 | |
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,000 | |
那這個這一段看起來 | |
247 | |
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,000 | |
就會有一點像是要讓你們 | |
248 | |
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,000 | |
介紹你們的豐功偉業 | |
249 | |
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,000 | |
但我覺得會有點不太公平 | |
250 | |
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,000 | |
不是不太公平 | |
251 | |
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,000 | |
怕大家覺得是像政令宣導 | |
252 | |
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,000 | |
所以我先講我的版本 | |
253 | |
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,000 | |
其實也是講好話 | |
254 | |
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,000 | |
但我先講就是說 | |
255 | |
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:28,000 | |
第一 大家可能一開始會有點期待 | |
256 | |
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,000 | |
說因為本來就不會有完美的政府 | |
257 | |
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,000 | |
如果有完美的政府 | |
258 | |
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,000 | |
那我們就不用選舉了 | |
259 | |
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,000 | |
政府本來就是可以一直improve | |
260 | |
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,000 | |
所以大家一定會覺得 | |
261 | |
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,000 | |
這裡怎麼樣 那裡怎麼樣 | |
262 | |
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,000 | |
大家一起來進步 | |
263 | |
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,000 | |
所以我們一直都會有人講說 | |
264 | |
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,000 | |
你要來監督 要怎麼樣 | |
265 | |
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:47,000 | |
所以別人每次都問我說 | |
266 | |
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,000 | |
你當選以後 | |
267 | |
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,000 | |
現在已經是進去了 | |
268 | |
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,000 | |
也開始工作了 | |
269 | |
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,000 | |
大家就說你數位部怎麼樣 | |
270 | |
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,000 | |
我就說 第一 | |
271 | |
00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,000 | |
唐鳳也是開發者 | |
272 | |
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:00,000 | |
我也是開發者 | |
273 | |
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,000 | |
我們都是網友鄉民 | |
274 | |
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,000 | |
所以我們過去也都是好朋友 | |
275 | |
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,000 | |
大家所有的開發者都是好朋友 | |
276 | |
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,000 | |
我感覺數位部有心 | |
277 | |
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,000 | |
也有一些預算 | |
278 | |
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,000 | |
雖然跟其他很多超大型專案比起來 | |
279 | |
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,000 | |
這個預算也不能說超級多 | |
280 | |
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,000 | |
所有部裡面我們倒數數一數二的 | |
281 | |
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,000 | |
以數位在我們的生活當中的廣度來講 | |
282 | |
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,000 | |
我必須要說 | |
283 | |
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,000 | |
總額也不能說真的到爆多的程度 | |
284 | |
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,000 | |
但是有時候會不小心 | |
285 | |
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,000 | |
會讓民眾有點誤會說 | |
286 | |
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,000 | |
他覺得好像沒有什麼有感的東西 | |
287 | |
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,000 | |
但是我都會幫你解釋 | |
288 | |
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:38,000 | |
我都怎麼解釋 | |
289 | |
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,000 | |
我說 第一 疫情的時候 | |
290 | |
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,000 | |
你們有做一些快速的專案 | |
291 | |
00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,000 | |
去幫助這個社會去回應COVID-19 | |
292 | |
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:45,000 | |
我真的有這樣講 | |
293 | |
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,000 | |
你都可以去聽我的錄音 | |
294 | |
00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,000 | |
第二 我很認同你們的一個長期的 | |
295 | |
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,000 | |
那個是快速的 | |
296 | |
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,000 | |
我很認同你們一個長期的邏輯 | |
297 | |
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,000 | |
就是數位韌性 | |
298 | |
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,000 | |
也就是說在這個很多變的時代 | |
299 | |
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,000 | |
不管我們的敵人是AI | |
300 | |
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,000 | |
還是 到底是踩在虛擬世界的 | |
301 | |
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,000 | |
還是踩在實體世界的 | |
302 | |
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,000 | |
還是什麼樣有智慧沒智慧的 | |
303 | |
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,000 | |
其實我們這個時代的變化很快 | |
304 | |
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,000 | |
台灣可能會面臨到的變動 | |
305 | |
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,000 | |
也很難預測 | |
306 | |
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,000 | |
所以我覺得如何讓台灣 | |
307 | |
00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,000 | |
變成是一個更有韌性的地方 | |
308 | |
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,000 | |
讓每一個人民的生活權益 | |
309 | |
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,000 | |
可以得到更有彈性 | |
310 | |
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,000 | |
更有韌性的保障 | |
311 | |
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:29,000 | |
這個我覺得你們的那個 | |
312 | |
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,000 | |
整個方針是對的 | |
313 | |
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,000 | |
然後我去偷看你們的網站 | |
314 | |
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,000 | |
其實有一些計畫是很 | |
315 | |
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:36,000 | |
不能講穩定 | |
316 | |
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,000 | |
就是說很有自己的節奏跟速度的 | |
317 | |
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:41,000 | |
我們叫公共建設 | |
318 | |
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,000 | |
數位公共建設 | |
319 | |
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,000 | |
很有vision的在往前推展 | |
320 | |
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,000 | |
所以這個是我是認同的 | |
321 | |
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,000 | |
所以這是我的版本 | |
322 | |
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,000 | |
那當然這個民眾可能 | |
323 | |
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,000 | |
還在一些其他地方 | |
324 | |
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,000 | |
譬如說電子簽章 | |
325 | |
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,000 | |
我們各自提 | |
326 | |
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:56,000 | |
但有一些地方也不一樣 | |
327 | |
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,000 | |
我覺得都很好 | |
328 | |
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,000 | |
所以我講了我的想法 | |
329 | |
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,000 | |
大家也可以自己研究 | |
330 | |
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,000 | |
但我也想聽聽看你的說法 | |
331 | |
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,000 | |
就是說能不能舉個例子是 | |
332 | |
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,000 | |
假設大家來問你 | |
333 | |
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:08,000 | |
我常常說阿嬤來問你 | |
334 | |
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,000 | |
或者說新任美國總統要來問你 | |
335 | |
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,000 | |
說蘇發布曾經做過什麼 | |
336 | |
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,000 | |
有沒有什麼用科技改變台灣社會 | |
337 | |
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:18,000 | |
推動產業發展案例 | |
338 | |
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,000 | |
你會怎麼說 | |
339 | |
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,000 | |
首先我想這些長期的方案 | |
340 | |
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,000 | |
其實是Vitalik它有一個詞 | |
341 | |
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,000 | |
D/ACC | |
342 | |
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,000 | |
就是防衛性加速技術 | |
343 | |
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,000 | |
我們有一集專門討論這個 | |
344 | |
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,000 | |
這個乙太坊創辦人之一 | |
345 | |
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,000 | |
Vitalik提過的這種 | |
346 | |
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,000 | |
所謂跟科技加速 | |
347 | |
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,000 | |
有關的一些論點 | |
348 | |
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:40,000 | |
對 | |
349 | |
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,000 | |
我們在做的韌性的工作 | |
350 | |
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,000 | |
其實就是這種 | |
351 | |
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,000 | |
防衛性的技術的加速 | |
352 | |
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,000 | |
我舉例 | |
353 | |
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,000 | |
像之前台灣跟馬祖中間的海欖 | |
354 | |
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,000 | |
曾經這兩條 | |
355 | |
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,000 | |
在一個星期之內 | |
356 | |
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,000 | |
就連續被一艘漁船跟一艘火船 | |
357 | |
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,000 | |
都是五星旗的隔斷 | |
358 | |
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,000 | |
他們都說他們不小心下馬 | |
359 | |
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,000 | |
不小心繼續移動 | |
360 | |
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,000 | |
但是就是也太不小心了 | |
361 | |
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,000 | |
所以像這種灰色地帶的狀況 | |
362 | |
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,000 | |
我們如果是說 | |
363 | |
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:05,000 | |
我們就一直派船去巡邏 | |
364 | |
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,000 | |
去防守那些海欖 | |
365 | |
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,000 | |
其實是投入不符成本的 | |
366 | |
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:09,000 | |
這個防禦的工作 | |
367 | |
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,000 | |
一個就是防衛加速的 | |
368 | |
00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:13,000 | |
這種技術的意思 | |
369 | |
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,000 | |
就是我們就要付出固定的成本 | |
370 | |
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,000 | |
人家就算切斷了海欖 | |
371 | |
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:18,000 | |
我們還有圍坡 | |
372 | |
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,000 | |
就算圍坡人家破壞掉 | |
373 | |
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,000 | |
我們還有衛星 | |
374 | |
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,000 | |
低軌衛星如果暫時收不到 | |
375 | |
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:24,000 | |
還有現在已經 | |
376 | |
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:25,000 | |
中軌衛星已經收得到 | |
377 | |
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,000 | |
低軌衛星應該很快就收得到了 | |
378 | |
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,000 | |
所以就是說這種 | |
379 | |
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,000 | |
多重的互相備援的這種韌性 | |
380 | |
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:33,000 | |
或者是說像 | |
381 | |
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,000 | |
有的時候發生火災 | |
382 | |
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,000 | |
或者一些地震 | |
383 | |
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:36,000 | |
颱風 | |
384 | |
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,000 | |
這些消防弟兄姊妹 | |
385 | |
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,000 | |
要進去的時候 | |
386 | |
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,000 | |
他如果附近基地台 | |
387 | |
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,000 | |
剛好就是受災的 | |
388 | |
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,000 | |
他不管本來SIM卡是什麼 | |
389 | |
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,000 | |
他可以透過災難漫遊 | |
390 | |
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,000 | |
去用三大電信的方案 | |
391 | |
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,000 | |
所有這些大概都是在確保說 | |
392 | |
00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,000 | |
發生緊急事件的時候 | |
393 | |
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,000 | |
我們整個通訊是非常順暢的 | |
394 | |
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,000 | |
這件事情我想是 | |
395 | |
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,000 | |
我們在最近一年半 | |
396 | |
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,000 | |
最重要的事情之一 | |
397 | |
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,000 | |
也有一些成果 | |
398 | |
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,000 | |
有一些朋友會覺得說 | |
399 | |
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,000 | |
我們發六千 | |
400 | |
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:04,000 | |
發六千應該委員有領過嗎 | |
401 | |
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,000 | |
我好像有 | |
402 | |
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:06,000 | |
他是自己會進來 | |
403 | |
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,000 | |
還是我要按按鈕 | |
404 | |
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,000 | |
對 如果我們已經有你的帳號 | |
405 | |
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,000 | |
你已經在領政府補助 | |
406 | |
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,000 | |
可能沒有啦 | |
407 | |
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,000 | |
可能會自己會 | |
408 | |
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,000 | |
但是大部分人 | |
409 | |
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,000 | |
是到線上填銀行帳號 | |
410 | |
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,000 | |
那也有人去ATM提六千現款 | |
411 | |
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,000 | |
那有些人他甚至沒有銀行帳號 | |
412 | |
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,000 | |
他去郵局拿 | |
413 | |
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,000 | |
我知道你們好像有做一個平台 | |
414 | |
00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,000 | |
我要輸入一些資料 | |
415 | |
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:27,000 | |
我可能有按過 | |
416 | |
00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,000 | |
或是我太太有幫我按過 | |
417 | |
00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,000 | |
對 但是因為就是我們設計到 | |
418 | |
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,000 | |
就是非常無障礙 非常順 | |
419 | |
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,000 | |
所以其實通常領的人 | |
420 | |
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,000 | |
不會記得用過那個平台 | |
421 | |
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,000 | |
所以就是說 | |
422 | |
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,000 | |
他把痛感最小化 | |
423 | |
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,000 | |
這是類似我們在 | |
424 | |
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,000 | |
以前規劃報稅軟體那個感覺 | |
425 | |
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,000 | |
就沒有人喜歡報所得稅 | |
426 | |
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,000 | |
所以你就是把那個秒數 | |
427 | |
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,000 | |
縮到最小 | |
428 | |
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,000 | |
那但是結果就是什麼 | |
429 | |
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,000 | |
因為沒有痛感 | |
430 | |
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,000 | |
所以也就比較無感 | |
431 | |
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:50,000 | |
就是沒有發生 | |
432 | |
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:51,000 | |
這個不舒服的感覺 | |
433 | |
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,000 | |
但是如果所有的政府的服務 | |
434 | |
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,000 | |
像以前要申請什麼良民證 | |
435 | |
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,000 | |
什麼紀錄 | |
436 | |
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:57,000 | |
你還要跑警察局等等 | |
437 | |
00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,000 | |
但現在在MyData裡面 | |
438 | |
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,000 | |
按兩個鍵就寄到你家了 | |
439 | |
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,000 | |
那可能大家都不會去 | |
440 | |
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,000 | |
特別看說 | |
441 | |
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,000 | |
MODA 數位部做了這個 | |
442 | |
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,000 | |
做了那個 做了那個 | |
443 | |
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,000 | |
但是目的就是要讓 | |
444 | |
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,000 | |
所有的政府的服務 | |
445 | |
00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:10,000 | |
變得非常的沒有痛感 | |
446 | |
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:11,000 | |
大概是這樣 | |
447 | |
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:12,000 | |
好吧 所以 | |
448 | |
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,000 | |
所以我如果有時候講說 | |
449 | |
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,000 | |
有心 但是民眾有時候無感 | |
450 | |
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,000 | |
還不是在罵你們 | |
451 | |
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,000 | |
對啊 無感是一種政績 | |
452 | |
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,000 | |
就是說真的好用 無縫 | |
453 | |
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,000 | |
或者是說零摩擦 | |
454 | |
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,000 | |
或者摩擦力很小 | |
455 | |
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,000 | |
確實在用的時候會讓你覺得 | |
456 | |
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:31,000 | |
好像他沒做什麼 | |
457 | |
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,000 | |
你這個舉例我可以同意 | |
458 | |
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,000 | |
就是說iPhone其實就是這樣 | |
459 | |
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,000 | |
其實iPhone的設計團隊超級巨大 | |
460 | |
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,000 | |
然後裡面的使用者研究團隊 | |
461 | |
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:40,000 | |
也超級巨大 | |
462 | |
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,000 | |
但是你在用的時候 | |
463 | |
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,000 | |
你只會覺得它就是一個iPhone | |
464 | |
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,000 | |
你並不會真的去細究 | |
465 | |
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,000 | |
為什麼它讓你離不開 | |
466 | |
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,000 | |
為什麼它這麼好用等等 | |
467 | |
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,000 | |
是這樣嗎 | |
468 | |
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,000 | |
對 而且像我們在房價上面也是這樣 | |
469 | |
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,000 | |
最近因為我們做這個專案報告 | |
470 | |
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,000 | |
所以我就提醒大家說 | |
471 | |
00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,000 | |
你是不是已經五個月或以上 | |
472 | |
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,000 | |
沒有再接到那種解除分期付款 | |
473 | |
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,000 | |
以前買個電商就會接到詐騙簡訊 | |
474 | |
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,000 | |
現在基本上在高風險賣場裡面都沒有了 | |
475 | |
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,000 | |
可是同樣的就是說 | |
476 | |
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,000 | |
大家不會特別去想沒有接到這些東西 | |
477 | |
00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,000 | |
因為我們有一碼技術等等 | |
478 | |
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,000 | |
對 我其實後來有看到1111 | |
479 | |
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,000 | |
是1111嗎 | |
480 | |
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,000 | |
3個1111這個簡訊 | |
481 | |
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:23,000 | |
我覺得有一些我們 | |
482 | |
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,000 | |
好像在質詢的這種意見 | |
483 | |
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,000 | |
我們就不要在這個節目上講 | |
484 | |
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,000 | |
我們就之後上質詢室再問 | |
485 | |
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,000 | |
但我也可以講就是說 | |
486 | |
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,000 | |
有時候一個好意 | |
487 | |
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:35,000 | |
也有可能在質詢的過程裡面 | |
488 | |
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,000 | |
因為不太可能很完美 | |
489 | |
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,000 | |
所以有可能大家會收到不小心 | |
490 | |
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,000 | |
某一些部會會不小心發了一些過多的簡訊 | |
491 | |
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:45,000 | |
也有可能 | |
492 | |
00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:46,000 | |
因為它可能有個KPI | |
493 | |
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,000 | |
我們就不提這麼多 | |
494 | |
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,000 | |
但我也認同確實這是一個好的指標 | |
495 | |
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,000 | |
只不過這指標有點尷尬 | |
496 | |
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,000 | |
我相信這是你的挑戰 | |
497 | |
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,000 | |
就是說沒事就是有做事 | |
498 | |
00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,000 | |
你在Stress上面有講過 | |
499 | |
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,000 | |
沒事就是有做事 | |
500 | |
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,000 | |
我認為這個論點其實有它的難度 | |
501 | |
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,000 | |
是因為當你一旦有事了 | |
502 | |
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,000 | |
你說沒事就是有做事 | |
503 | |
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,000 | |
反過來就你一旦有事了 | |
504 | |
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:12,000 | |
比如說什麼東西沒做好 | |
505 | |
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,000 | |
大家就說你是不是沒做事 | |
506 | |
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,000 | |
沒錯沒錯 | |
507 | |
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,000 | |
確實啊 | |
508 | |
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,000 | |
而且因為就像文源講的 | |
509 | |
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,000 | |
像AI在就算是一年半以前 | |
510 | |
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,000 | |
深層次AI還不能夠把我們兩個聲音 | |
511 | |
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,000 | |
Copy到微妙微小 | |
512 | |
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,000 | |
現在可以了 | |
513 | |
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,000 | |
所以這種仿冒名人的 | |
514 | |
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,000 | |
以前都不會直接連到LINE跟你私聊 | |
515 | |
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,000 | |
但現在都會去私聊 | |
516 | |
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,000 | |
其實我現在真的是非常擔心 | |
517 | |
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,000 | |
其實今天 昨天的新聞已經有 | |
518 | |
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,000 | |
就是說美國現在有一個案例是 | |
519 | |
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,000 | |
有一個不知道是爸爸 | |
520 | |
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,000 | |
然後就在IG上面Fall in love | |
521 | |
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,000 | |
然後有視訊 有聊天 | |
522 | |
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,000 | |
甚至還有通話 | |
523 | |
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,000 | |
然後還常常看到他的照片 | |
524 | |
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,000 | |
然後好像匯了很多錢給他 | |
525 | |
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:54,000 | |
但實際上 | |
526 | |
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,000 | |
他好像不知道什麼原因 | |
527 | |
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,000 | |
就發現這個不是人 | |
528 | |
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,000 | |
所以從頭到尾在跟他要錢啊 | |
529 | |
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,000 | |
或是什麼 | |
530 | |
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,000 | |
根本就是一個AI的一個Agent | |
531 | |
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,000 | |
一個替身這樣子 | |
532 | |
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,000 | |
全自動化的 | |
533 | |
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,000 | |
然後我其實也會很擔心說 | |
534 | |
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,000 | |
在台灣沒事其實表示有事 | |
535 | |
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,000 | |
就是說因為有一些東西就是隱於事 | |
536 | |
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,000 | |
他就像比如說地牛要翻身 | |
537 | |
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,000 | |
他其實是地殼這樣子 | |
538 | |
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,000 | |
集合在一起一段時間 | |
539 | |
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,000 | |
你其實不會看到他 | |
540 | |
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:25,000 | |
但他一下出現 | |
541 | |
00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,000 | |
所以就會很怕說 | |
542 | |
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,000 | |
其實我們在那邊爭吵 | |
543 | |
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:30,000 | |
一些其他事情的時候 | |
544 | |
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,000 | |
但其實檯面下 | |
545 | |
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,000 | |
或者在網路的這個茫茫茫海裡 | |
546 | |
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,000 | |
已經有很多人跳進這些圈套 | |
547 | |
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,000 | |
或者是這些有點危險的事 | |
548 | |
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,000 | |
而且他那個通常都要養一段時間 | |
549 | |
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,000 | |
而且就算養一段時間我被騙了 | |
550 | |
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:46,000 | |
我還不會馬上發現 | |
551 | |
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,000 | |
所以其實是真的有點擔心 | |
552 | |
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,000 | |
所以我當然也是要跟你講 | |
553 | |
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,000 | |
我們現在錄音的時間 | |
554 | |
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,000 | |
距離前幾天發生 | |
555 | |
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,000 | |
我們放那個AI影片給陳院長看的時間 | |
556 | |
00:18:58,000 --> 00:18:59,000 | |
不是很長 | |
557 | |
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,000 | |
所以我想我們還是可以講一下 | |
558 | |
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,000 | |
就是說不小心放了影片給他看 | |
559 | |
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,000 | |
然後希望能夠讓他了解 | |
560 | |
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,000 | |
現在的技術真的是很可怕 | |
561 | |
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,000 | |
然後希望提醒所有的人 | |
562 | |
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,000 | |
也包括我們自己所有的委員 | |
563 | |
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,000 | |
因為我在院內也成立什麼 | |
564 | |
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,000 | |
先進科技交流協會 | |
565 | |
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,000 | |
其實都是一起讓大家知道說 | |
566 | |
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,000 | |
其實現在真的比你想像中的可怕 | |
567 | |
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:19,000 | |
因為我自己生成那個影片 | |
568 | |
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,000 | |
我自己有點嚇一跳 | |
569 | |
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,000 | |
但是好像新聞可能把focus放在 | |
570 | |
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,000 | |
可能院長的反應 | |
571 | |
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,000 | |
其實那並不是我的本意 | |
572 | |
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,000 | |
也真的是希望大家早一點的意識到這件事 | |
573 | |
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,000 | |
其實我感覺到政府是有反應 | |
574 | |
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,000 | |
第一你看馬上謝謝部長就來錄音 | |
575 | |
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,000 | |
第二其實好像就開始在討論打防詐專法 | |
576 | |
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,000 | |
沒錯就是專門來做這種 | |
577 | |
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,000 | |
你如果以後要登廣告不只投資廣告 | |
578 | |
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,000 | |
大概都要上數位簽章 | |
579 | |
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,000 | |
沒有簽的就是假的 | |
580 | |
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:50,000 | |
不管看起來再像 | |
581 | |
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,000 | |
對所以我們那天遇到的時候 | |
582 | |
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:53,000 | |
你也跟我講說 | |
583 | |
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,000 | |
記者問你說怎麼看那個假影片 | |
584 | |
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,000 | |
你的回答就很好 | |
585 | |
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,000 | |
沒有簽的就推定是假的 | |
586 | |
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,000 | |
我管你是不是假的 | |
587 | |
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,000 | |
所以我覺得希望大家focus在 | |
588 | |
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,000 | |
這個事件本身的危險性 | |
589 | |
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,000 | |
但是我還是要提醒 | |
590 | |
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,000 | |
AI也有它的產業發展的機會 | |
591 | |
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:14,000 | |
台灣還是要把我們的思維頻寬打得開一點 | |
592 | |
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,000 | |
就是我們如果說它很危險 | |
593 | |
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,000 | |
你也想不會吧 | |
594 | |
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,000 | |
它應該是有機會的地方 | |
595 | |
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,000 | |
這個就跟以前加密科技有一句話叫做 | |
596 | |
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,000 | |
如果你禁止大家用 | |
597 | |
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:24,000 | |
那就只有罪犯會用 | |
598 | |
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,000 | |
對就是我們要同時去思考很多方面 | |
599 | |
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,000 | |
所以如果大家擁有這樣的思維的時候 | |
600 | |
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,000 | |
大家說這個數位部好像沒做事 | |
601 | |
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,000 | |
大家可能就可以去理解你的說法 | |
602 | |
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,000 | |
叫做不會喔 | |
603 | |
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,000 | |
所以是沒感覺到有做事 | |
604 | |
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,000 | |
但他們其實做了很多事讓你沒感覺 | |
605 | |
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,000 | |
對沒出事是因為做了很多事 | |
606 | |
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,000 | |
那委員剛剛講的 | |
607 | |
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,000 | |
就是因為是在講你的資訊 | |
608 | |
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,000 | |
有一個真的很好 | |
609 | |
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,000 | |
就是說現在其實大家並不是很care說 | |
610 | |
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,000 | |
這些冒充名人的到底騙了多少錢 | |
611 | |
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,000 | |
而是這些被冒充的名人會非常不舒服 | |
612 | |
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,000 | |
對所以很多是如果我們沒有辦法 | |
613 | |
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,000 | |
讓大家知道到底哪一個是真的 | |
614 | |
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,000 | |
這個名人的時候 | |
615 | |
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,000 | |
我們上網的時候都會處於一個 | |
616 | |
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,000 | |
隨時戰戰兢兢的狀態 | |
617 | |
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,000 | |
是人際的互信被破壞 | |
618 | |
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,000 | |
那個比起金錢的損失 | |
619 | |
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,000 | |
我覺得更加長遠了 | |
620 | |
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,000 | |
對所以我想接下來 | |
621 | |
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,000 | |
歡迎大家持續關注 | |
622 | |
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,000 | |
我們這一次我們的政府跟立院的協作 | |
623 | |
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,000 | |
都希望可以把台灣推進到一個更好的地方 | |
624 | |
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,000 | |
那我自己也有我的挑戰 | |
625 | |
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,000 | |
我之前也跟你有機會討論過 | |
626 | |
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,000 | |
就是說你的挑戰是 | |
627 | |
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,000 | |
你們盡可能的把大家使用數位的 | |
628 | |
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,000 | |
公眾服務的所謂的摩擦力降到最低 | |
629 | |
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,000 | |
可是會不小心讓大家很容易忘記 | |
630 | |
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,000 | |
或者是很容易沒有感覺 | |
631 | |
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,000 | |
我有上過六千網站嗎不記得了 | |
632 | |
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,000 | |
之類的 | |
633 | |
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,000 | |
那我覺得這是你們的挑戰 | |
634 | |
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,000 | |
我覺得你們也不可能一直說 | |
635 | |
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,000 | |
就這樣嘛那你忘記就算了 | |
636 | |
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,000 | |
那你們可能就變成要多做溝通 | |
637 | |
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,000 | |
多來上寶寶朋友說 | |
638 | |
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,000 | |
大家一起說一說你們做什麼 | |
639 | |
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,000 | |
讓大家持續保持這個印象 | |
640 | |
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,000 | |
而且是留下美好的感受 | |
641 | |
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,000 | |
你的訪綱裡面有一提示說 | |
642 | |
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,000 | |
有沒有什麼我們還沒做的事情 | |
643 | |
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,000 | |
我本來就打算回答這個 | |
644 | |
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,000 | |
我很期待 | |
645 | |
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,000 | |
那我自己也有我的挑戰 | |
646 | |
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,000 | |
就是說科技這個角色 | |
647 | |
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,000 | |
或者這樣子的議題 | |
648 | |
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,000 | |
其實沒有那麼sexy | |
649 | |
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,000 | |
然後也沒有那麼funny | |
650 | |
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,000 | |
然後老實說雖然它無所不在 | |
651 | |
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,000 | |
就像水跟空氣跟陽光一樣 | |
652 | |
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,000 | |
大家每天都用科技用得很開心 | |
653 | |
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,000 | |
可是我們一旦講說我們要科技立法 | |
654 | |
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,000 | |
我們電子簽章 | |
655 | |
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,000 | |
我們這個AI基本法 | |
656 | |
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,000 | |
民眾就覺得這什麼 | |
657 | |
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,000 | |
我要看那個什麼漁船 | |
658 | |
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,000 | |
我要看什麼對不對 | |
659 | |
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,000 | |
我要看那個誰又拉了誰 | |
660 | |
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,000 | |
誰又怎麼樣 | |
661 | |
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,000 | |
誰又沒有有到 | |
662 | |
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,000 | |
之類的 | |
663 | |
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,000 | |
就是我的挑戰是 | |
664 | |
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,000 | |
我如果要推動一些科技的立法 | |
665 | |
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,000 | |
可能也是要合作嘛 | |
666 | |
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,000 | |
因為行政院有行政院版本 | |
667 | |
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,000 | |
我們有我們的版本 | |
668 | |
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,000 | |
可是如果大家不關注 | |
669 | |
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,000 | |
不關注就 | |
670 | |
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,000 | |
新聞媒體就不會喜歡報 | |
671 | |
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,000 | |
不會喜歡報我們就很難匯聚民意 | |
672 | |
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,000 | |
很難匯聚民意的時候 | |
673 | |
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,000 | |
民眾可能突然一個關注點的轉移 | |
674 | |
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,000 | |
就是說我們要注重另外一件事情 | |
675 | |
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,000 | |
可能教育可能什麼 | |
676 | |
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,000 | |
大家就要趕快處理那個 | |
677 | |
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,000 | |
可能我們在處理的某一些科技很重要 | |
678 | |
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,000 | |
像你講的低軌衛星 | |
679 | |
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,000 | |
什麼數位韌性 | |
680 | |
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,000 | |
可能時間就不小心被拖得很長 | |
681 | |
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,000 | |
那怎麼樣去找到一種方法是 | |
682 | |
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,000 | |
既可以推動科技的立法 | |
683 | |
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,000 | |
然後又能夠跟得上時代 | |
684 | |
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,000 | |
而且還要在過程當中 | |
685 | |
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,000 | |
取得民眾的眼球關注 | |
686 | |
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,000 | |
而且因為這個眼球關注 | |
687 | |
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,000 | |
所以媒體願意去拍攝 | |
688 | |
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,000 | |
去記錄去傳播 | |
689 | |
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,000 | |
讓民眾有機會可以表達他們的聲音 | |
690 | |
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,000 | |
我們再收集這個聲音 | |
691 | |
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,000 | |
不管是反對還是支持 | |
692 | |
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,000 | |
再去修改我們的立法 | |
693 | |
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:45,000 | |
這真的很難 | |
694 | |
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,000 | |
你講一下這個 | |
695 | |
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,000 | |
有沒有什麼方法 | |
696 | |
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,000 | |
可以改進這個狀態 | |
697 | |
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,000 | |
我們也協作一下 | |
698 | |
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,000 | |
對呀 | |
699 | |
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,000 | |
我想就是有新興的威脅 | |
700 | |
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,000 | |
像剛剛講到AI換臉換聲音 | |
701 | |
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,000 | |
透過創新來解決這個新興的威脅 | |
702 | |
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,000 | |
這個是有聲量的 | |
703 | |
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,000 | |
這個大家會關注 | |
704 | |
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000 | |
所以我們只要能夠不斷的告訴大家 | |
705 | |
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,000 | |
接下來那個地牛快翻身了 | |
706 | |
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,000 | |
就是土壤液化潛勢區 | |
707 | |
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,000 | |
什麼之類的 | |
708 | |
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,000 | |
接下來會有這個威脅那個威脅 | |
709 | |
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,000 | |
那這樣我們就自動可以獲得一些 | |
710 | |
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,000 | |
接下來就應該討論的事情 | |
711 | |
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,000 | |
其實我們就在錄音室 | |
712 | |
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,000 | |
3月21號禮拜四 | |
713 | |
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,000 | |
我們後天禮拜六 | |
714 | |
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,000 | |
我們送了十幾萬則簡訊 | |
715 | |
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,000 | |
給台灣的就是大家 | |
716 | |
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,000 | |
用111送的 | |
717 | |
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,000 | |
那裡面呢 | |
718 | |
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,000 | |
願意來參加的人 | |
719 | |
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,000 | |
我們挑了400人 | |
720 | |
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,000 | |
完全是抽樣分層抽樣 | |
721 | |
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,000 | |
什麼就跟民調一樣了 | |
722 | |
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,000 | |
那我們就是希望大家 | |
723 | |
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,000 | |
就是透過視訊的方式 | |
724 | |
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,000 | |
討論整個半天 | |
725 | |
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,000 | |
6個小時7個小時 | |
726 | |
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,000 | |
就是AI接下來會造成什麼危害 | |
727 | |
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,000 | |
大家想到什麼就講 | |
728 | |
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,000 | |
那有些我們已經知道了 | |
729 | |
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,000 | |
像剛剛講到詐騙嘛 | |
730 | |
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,000 | |
介入選舉嘛之類 | |
731 | |
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,000 | |
那有一些可能我們也還沒有看到的 | |
732 | |
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,000 | |
那我們就希望說 | |
733 | |
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,000 | |
這個公民的審議 | |
734 | |
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:57,000 | |
能夠告訴我們說 | |
735 | |
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,000 | |
大家現在最關注的 | |
736 | |
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,000 | |
AI的威脅是什麼 | |
737 | |
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,000 | |
這樣子我們就可以來 | |
738 | |
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,000 | |
用創新的方法來解決 | |
739 | |
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,000 | |
所以連這樣子的 | |
740 | |
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,000 | |
大家討論的自動收整 | |
741 | |
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,000 | |
或者是自動變成 | |
742 | |
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,000 | |
我們看得到的這個brief | |
743 | |
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,000 | |
這個都是語言模型 | |
744 | |
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,000 | |
AI可以做的事情 | |
745 | |
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,000 | |
是 這個簡訊的發送呢 | |
746 | |
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,000 | |
應該有一個approval的流程 | |
747 | |
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,000 | |
因為我有時候會收到 | |
748 | |
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,000 | |
我有時候 | |
749 | |
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,000 | |
我有收過一些很熱心的部會 | |
750 | |
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,000 | |
他會突然間發一個簡訊說 | |
751 | |
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,000 | |
提醒你隨時都會收到詐騙 | |
752 | |
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:28,000 | |
他用簡訊來提 | |
753 | |
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,000 | |
提醒你隨時會收到詐騙簡訊 | |
754 | |
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:31,000 | |
請多注意喔 | |
755 | |
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,000 | |
我想說 | |
756 | |
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000 | |
我真的不想用這種 | |
757 | |
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000 | |
讓我很戰戰兢兢的傳播方式 | |
758 | |
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,000 | |
然後來告訴我說 | |
759 | |
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:41,000 | |
這個傳播方式很危險 | |
760 | |
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,000 | |
然後我會有點搞不清楚 | |
761 | |
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,000 | |
那這則訊息是幹嘛 | |
762 | |
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,000 | |
我們不要批評 | |
763 | |
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,000 | |
如果那個是警政署的 | |
764 | |
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,000 | |
他們4月開始就會用111發了 | |
765 | |
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,000 | |
你就不會再懷疑了 | |
766 | |
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,000 | |
好啦好啦 | |
767 | |
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,000 | |
所以我希望未來我們都一起努力 | |
768 | |
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,000 | |
讓民眾的信任感安全感提升 | |
769 | |
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,000 | |
這也是數位韌性的一部分 | |
770 | |
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,000 | |
那我想呢 | |
771 | |
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,000 | |
未來大家一起努力 | |
772 | |
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,000 | |
那針對資安和反詐 | |
773 | |
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,000 | |
有時候大家的這個 | |
774 | |
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,000 | |
會有一點混淆 | |
775 | |
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,000 | |
就是說 | |
776 | |
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,000 | |
好像有些事情是數位部的 | |
777 | |
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,000 | |
有一些事情是 | |
778 | |
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,000 | |
NCC所謂的通訊傳播委員會 | |
779 | |
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,000 | |
有一些東西 | |
780 | |
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,000 | |
比如說某一些平台的詐騙 | |
781 | |
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,000 | |
很可能是金管會也會關注 | |
782 | |
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,000 | |
很可能經濟部也會關注 | |
783 | |
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,000 | |
我們就先講好了 | |
784 | |
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,000 | |
因為數位平台 | |
785 | |
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,000 | |
有時候我們就會覺得 | |
786 | |
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,000 | |
也是傳播的一部分 | |
787 | |
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,000 | |
那可是 | |
788 | |
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,000 | |
有一些跟數位傳播 | |
789 | |
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,000 | |
比如說數位中介法 | |
790 | |
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,000 | |
數位中介法是你這邊還是NCC | |
791 | |
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:40,000 | |
就很奇怪 | |
792 | |
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,000 | |
數位中介法感覺就很數位啊 | |
793 | |
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,000 | |
為什麼不是數位部呢 | |
794 | |
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,000 | |
是不是可以跟我們講一下 | |
795 | |
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,000 | |
你們兩者如何分配和合作 | |
796 | |
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,000 | |
其實委員在質詢的時候 | |
797 | |
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,000 | |
有端出那個資通安全匯報 | |
798 | |
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,000 | |
那這個就是資通安全匯報的架構圖 | |
799 | |
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:57,000 | |
那這個架構圖裡面 | |
800 | |
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:58,000 | |
其實我們可以看到 | |
801 | |
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,000 | |
大概分成左右兩支 | |
802 | |
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,000 | |
左邊是還沒有受害人 | |
803 | |
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,000 | |
就是防患於未然的部分 | |
804 | |
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:05,000 | |
那個就是我們 | |
805 | |
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,000 | |
右邊是犯罪偵防 | |
806 | |
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,000 | |
就是有被害人了 | |
807 | |
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,000 | |
那個就內政部 法務部 NCC等等 | |
808 | |
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,000 | |
所以其實最簡單的分法就是這樣子 | |
809 | |
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,000 | |
我們做的事情是還沒發生 | |
810 | |
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,000 | |
防患於未然 | |
811 | |
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,000 | |
很容易無感的部分 | |
812 | |
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,000 | |
不要發生事情就是我們做的 | |
813 | |
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,000 | |
但是一旦有明確的被害者 | |
814 | |
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,000 | |
那可能內容層面這部分 | |
815 | |
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,000 | |
NCC就要來幫忙 | |
816 | |
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,000 | |
那如果是像剛剛講到詐騙 | |
817 | |
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,000 | |
有金額的損失等等 | |
818 | |
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,000 | |
那如果是透過像銀行什麼出去 | |
819 | |
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,000 | |
那當然警管會就進來 | |
820 | |
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,000 | |
所以我們大概就是來守護 | |
821 | |
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,000 | |
資通系統的安全 | |
822 | |
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,000 | |
然後不要發生犯罪 | |
823 | |
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:43,000 | |
但是一旦發生犯罪 | |
824 | |
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,000 | |
這個就到內政部 法務部 NCC這支 | |
825 | |
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,000 | |
那我問一個媒體可能沒有關注到 | |
826 | |
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,000 | |
然後我其實之前也沒有那麼的關注到 | |
827 | |
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,000 | |
但是剛剛在介紹你的時候 | |
828 | |
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,000 | |
我才赫然發現的 | |
829 | |
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,000 | |
就是你現在其實是 | |
830 | |
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,000 | |
數位部部長兼國家資通安全研究院的董事長 | |
831 | |
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,000 | |
這兩個應該兼董事長 | |
832 | |
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,000 | |
應該是近期才發生的 | |
833 | |
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,000 | |
還是一開始就有 | |
834 | |
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,000 | |
我們是2022年8月數位部就成立 | |
835 | |
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,000 | |
但是到隔年的年初才成立資安院 | |
836 | |
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:17,000 | |
那這兩件事情我們怎麼去理解 | |
837 | |
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:23,000 | |
就是他怎麼樣互相幫助你想要為台灣及台灣人做的事 | |
838 | |
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,000 | |
我想數位部當然主要是政策 | |
839 | |
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,000 | |
然後包含立法等等 | |
840 | |
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,000 | |
那資安院他其實是用勞基法 | |
841 | |
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,000 | |
就是他是一個叫行政法人 | |
842 | |
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,000 | |
就是有一點像是一家公司 | |
843 | |
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,000 | |
他不是就在裡面有一些 | |
844 | |
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,000 | |
不一定是公務員的意思 | |
845 | |
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,000 | |
但是因為他是行政法人 | |
846 | |
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:46,000 | |
所以當他去做資安的就是檢測 | |
847 | |
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,000 | |
或者是做資安的集合 | |
848 | |
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,000 | |
或者是做資安的應變處理的時候 | |
849 | |
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,000 | |
因為他也要通過背景查核等等 | |
850 | |
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,000 | |
所以他可以用公務員身份做這件事情 | |
851 | |
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,000 | |
那其實行政法人這個設計 | |
852 | |
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,000 | |
坦白來講 | |
853 | |
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,000 | |
就是為了要讓業界的一些朋友 | |
854 | |
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,000 | |
他能夠發揮他的所長 | |
855 | |
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,000 | |
因為在就是技術這個方面 | |
856 | |
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,000 | |
他日新月異嘛 | |
857 | |
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:08,000 | |
更新很快 | |
858 | |
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,000 | |
而且外面給的資安的薪水 | |
859 | |
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:11,000 | |
說真的並不是我們 | |
860 | |
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,000 | |
月聘給得起的薪水 | |
861 | |
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:14,000 | |
所以資安院其實是中間 | |
862 | |
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,000 | |
讓這些有專業的朋友 | |
863 | |
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,000 | |
他能夠進來 | |
864 | |
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,000 | |
所以我在資安院董事長 | |
865 | |
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,000 | |
這個身份的時候 | |
866 | |
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,000 | |
我就是阿宅啦 | |
867 | |
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,000 | |
就是工程師 | |
868 | |
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,000 | |
就是開發者 | |
869 | |
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:24,000 | |
我自己當董事長 | |
870 | |
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,000 | |
我進去都要去上機 | |
871 | |
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,000 | |
玩那個工房演練模擬 | |
872 | |
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,000 | |
就是他真的會模擬 | |
873 | |
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:30,000 | |
有人打進來 | |
874 | |
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:31,000 | |
然後你要去做什麼處理 | |
875 | |
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,000 | |
那所以這個是純粹技術的 | |
876 | |
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,000 | |
那數位部這邊是政策 | |
877 | |
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,000 | |
所以我們可以看到啦 | |
878 | |
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,000 | |
就是防患於未然 | |
879 | |
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,000 | |
其實確實有很多層面的工作要做 | |
880 | |
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:43,000 | |
那現在呢 | |
881 | |
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,000 | |
因為有很多的 | |
882 | |
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,000 | |
所謂看不見的安全危害 | |
883 | |
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,000 | |
就是所謂的資訊安全 | |
884 | |
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,000 | |
Cyber Security | |
885 | |
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,000 | |
這個Intangible的 | |
886 | |
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,000 | |
碰不到 | |
887 | |
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,000 | |
也肉眼看不見的 | |
888 | |
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:55,000 | |
那也包含現在有很多 | |
889 | |
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,000 | |
甚至Intangible的Intelligence | |
890 | |
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,000 | |
就所謂的Artificial Intelligence | |
891 | |
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,000 | |
AI 人工智慧 | |
892 | |
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,000 | |
那這兩件事情 | |
893 | |
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,000 | |
其實都一直在高速的發展 | |
894 | |
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,000 | |
那其實我也很好奇 | |
895 | |
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,000 | |
就是說 | |
896 | |
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,000 | |
這兩件事 | |
897 | |
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,000 | |
我自己看你個人 | |
898 | |
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,000 | |
其實有很多投入啦 | |
899 | |
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,000 | |
不管是你剛剛講的防害 | |
900 | |
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,000 | |
或者是你自己的主旨稿 | |
901 | |
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,000 | |
上次我們閒聊的時候 | |
902 | |
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:19,000 | |
你說你已經升級 | |
903 | |
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,000 | |
變成用AI | |
904 | |
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,000 | |
這可以講嗎 | |
905 | |
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:22,000 | |
可以啊可以啊 | |
906 | |
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,000 | |
就是用Whisperer | |
907 | |
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,000 | |
就OpenAI那一集 | |
908 | |
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,000 | |
那你是run在你自己的Mac裡面嗎 | |
909 | |
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:26,000 | |
沒錯沒錯 | |
910 | |
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:27,000 | |
然後你自己會 | |
911 | |
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,000 | |
對我有想到 | |
912 | |
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,000 | |
你好像自己幫忙 | |
913 | |
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,000 | |
把一個模型轉成Mac | |
914 | |
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,000 | |
對 相容這樣 | |
915 | |
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,000 | |
那這都在你的GitHub可以看到 | |
916 | |
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,000 | |
或HuggingFace | |
917 | |
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,000 | |
HuggingFace | |
918 | |
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,000 | |
你有HuggingFace | |
919 | |
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,000 | |
這個阿宅聽得懂 | |
920 | |
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,000 | |
反正就是一個 | |
921 | |
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,000 | |
你可以調用很多AI的地方 | |
922 | |
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:47,000 | |
那我也好像有聽說 | |
923 | |
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,000 | |
除了你個人之外 | |
924 | |
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,000 | |
其實不知道是數位部 | |
925 | |
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,000 | |
還是我不知道資安院有沒有 | |
926 | |
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,000 | |
就是你們好像正在做一些 | |
927 | |
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,000 | |
未來要去幫忙檢核AI的 | |
928 | |
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:00,000 | |
AI評測中心 | |
929 | |
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,000 | |
對 AI評測中心 | |
930 | |
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,000 | |
那我很好奇就是 | |
931 | |
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,000 | |
你們有沒有在開發一些 | |
932 | |
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,000 | |
不管是協助我們產業或民間 | |
933 | |
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,000 | |
可以把AI做得更好的東西 | |
934 | |
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,000 | |
或者你們自己有沒有在 | |
935 | |
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,000 | |
運用AI去做一些 | |
936 | |
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,000 | |
協助政策發展的工具 | |
937 | |
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:24,000 | |
就是有沒有在運用數位的強項 | |
938 | |
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,000 | |
來協助你們可以做一個 | |
939 | |
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,000 | |
更好的數位部 | |
940 | |
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,000 | |
或者更好的資安院 | |
941 | |
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,000 | |
譬如說你們有沒有一些 | |
942 | |
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,000 | |
資安評測工具 | |
943 | |
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,000 | |
因為我作為我的角色 | |
944 | |
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,000 | |
我也很關注企業被害的問題 | |
945 | |
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,000 | |
或者甚至我自己以前 | |
946 | |
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,000 | |
在大學院校教書 | |
947 | |
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,000 | |
我也非常擔心 | |
948 | |
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,000 | |
學校可能的資安的 | |
949 | |
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,000 | |
整體的風險層級 | |
950 | |
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,000 | |
這個是不是可以跟我們介紹一下 | |
951 | |
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,000 | |
沒問題啊 資安院確實是有 | |
952 | |
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,000 | |
因為我們在資安院會收到 | |
953 | |
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,000 | |
各式各樣的資安的緊急通報 | |
954 | |
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,000 | |
有一些是叫做APT | |
955 | |
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,000 | |
就是它潛伏很久 | |
956 | |
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,000 | |
最後才觸發 | |
957 | |
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,000 | |
所以它其實在移動的過程 | |
958 | |
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,000 | |
很像移動的過程 | |
959 | |
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,000 | |
不一定會留什麼 | |
960 | |
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,000 | |
那個系統管理員看得到的軌跡 | |
961 | |
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,000 | |
它就慢慢的在那邊蔓延 | |
962 | |
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,000 | |
所以AI事實上是有可能 | |
963 | |
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,000 | |
看這些紀錄 | |
964 | |
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,000 | |
它可以看到人類分析是看不出來 | |
965 | |
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,000 | |
但是事實上對方的攻擊的AI | |
966 | |
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,000 | |
在作用的這些蛛絲馬跡 | |
967 | |
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,000 | |
所以這種威脅分析 | |
968 | |
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,000 | |
確實現在就已經用很多AI在做 | |
969 | |
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,000 | |
這個威脅分析也不只發生在 | |
970 | |
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,000 | |
網路或者是系統層面 | |
971 | |
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,000 | |
它也發生在訊息層面 | |
972 | |
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,000 | |
舉例來說 | |
973 | |
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,000 | |
像我們剛剛講到的登廣告 | |
974 | |
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,000 | |
廣告裡面你如果看到說 | |
975 | |
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,000 | |
它冒充某個名人 | |
976 | |
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,000 | |
當然一看大家就可能說 | |
977 | |
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,000 | |
可能是假的 | |
978 | |
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,000 | |
但有一些它可能是 | |
979 | |
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,000 | |
PO一個商品上去 | |
980 | |
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,000 | |
一個iPhone 15 Pro Max | |
981 | |
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,000 | |
這也不能賣 | |
982 | |
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:49,000 | |
也不是特許試驗 | |
983 | |
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,000 | |
可是它就可能價錢異常的低 | |
984 | |
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,000 | |
或者是說它的描述的方式 | |
985 | |
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,000 | |
跟別的不一樣 | |
986 | |
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,000 | |
這個時候如果不是很有經驗的 | |
987 | |
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,000 | |
其實看了就很容易中招 | |
988 | |
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,000 | |
這個就好像我們 | |
989 | |
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,000 | |
過濾垃圾郵件一樣 | |
990 | |
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,000 | |
只要你訓練久了 | |
991 | |
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,000 | |
其實機器可以看出 | |
992 | |
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,000 | |
人類看不出的一些 | |
993 | |
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,000 | |
詐騙集團用的模式 | |
994 | |
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,000 | |
這個我們叫做防詐雷達 | |
995 | |
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,000 | |
以及相關的技術 | |
996 | |
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,000 | |
這個我們偵測到之後 | |
997 | |
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:15,000 | |
它的信心水準到達90 | |
998 | |
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,000 | |
到達95 | |
999 | |
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:17,000 | |
到某個程度 | |
1000 | |
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,000 | |
我們就會通報給這些平台 | |
1001 | |
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,000 | |
165等等 | |
1002 | |
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:21,000 | |
他們就可以在即使 | |
1003 | |
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,000 | |
還沒有人受害的情況下去下架 | |
1004 | |
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,000 | |
那他們要加入這個什麼聯防機制 | |
1005 | |
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,000 | |
他要怎麼引入自己 | |
1006 | |
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,000 | |
就引到那個 | |
1007 | |
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,000 | |
可以被通知的這件事情 | |
1008 | |
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,000 | |
這是非常好的問題 | |
1009 | |
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,000 | |
它是你們選的 | |
1010 | |
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,000 | |
還是我可以申請 | |
1011 | |
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,000 | |
可以申請 | |
1012 | |
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:37,000 | |
因為我們是電商的主管機關 | |
1013 | |
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,000 | |
電商是不是 | |
1014 | |
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,000 | |
那可不可以更多 | |
1015 | |
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,000 | |
像你看我們辦公室就有網站 | |
1016 | |
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,000 | |
這個jiuchongco.com | |
1017 | |
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,000 | |
這個之後放在說明欄位 | |
1018 | |
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,000 | |
我們也很怕資安危害 | |
1019 | |
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,000 | |
雖然我們是用GitHub | |
1020 | |
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,000 | |
應該還算安全 | |
1021 | |
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,000 | |
但是對不對 | |
1022 | |
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,000 | |
大家如果自己有其他的service | |
1023 | |
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,000 | |
也不一定是電商 | |
1024 | |
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,000 | |
所以你們可以考慮加入TWSARESCC | |
1025 | |
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,000 | |
那個是資安院 | |
1026 | |
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,000 | |
今年開始 | |
1027 | |
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,000 | |
就是24/7提供的 | |
1028 | |
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,000 | |
就是民間都可以來做資安事件通報 | |
1029 | |
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,000 | |
然後以及你可以訂閱 | |
1030 | |
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,000 | |
就是跟你的系統有關的資安通報 | |
1031 | |
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,000 | |
你就會自動收到 | |
1032 | |
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,000 | |
那大部分上市櫃公司都加入 | |
1033 | |
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,000 | |
因為金管會說他就是要加入 | |
1034 | |
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,000 | |
而且如果真的有時間要發重訊 | |
1035 | |
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,000 | |
但是很多中小型的事業 | |
1036 | |
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,000 | |
因為他也不是上市公司 | |
1037 | |
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,000 | |
那目前就是完全是up in | |
1038 | |
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,000 | |
就是他願意加入再加入 | |
1039 | |
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,000 | |
那我問一個很愚蠢的問題 | |
1040 | |
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,000 | |
因為我們的千萬粉絲裡面 | |
1041 | |
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,000 | |
其實臥虎藏龍 | |
1042 | |
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,000 | |
可能也有一些上市櫃公司的老闆 | |
1043 | |
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,000 | |
或者是高階經理人 | |
1044 | |
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,000 | |
我就幫他們問 | |
1045 | |
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,000 | |
就是說 | |
1046 | |
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,000 | |
他們有時候很想要提升自己的資安 | |
1047 | |
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,000 | |
因為他們也不想要上頭條 | |
1048 | |
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,000 | |
可是他們有時候求助無門 | |
1049 | |
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,000 | |
有時候敲門去問說 | |
1050 | |
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,000 | |
你能不能幫我檢查一下我安不安全 | |
1051 | |
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,000 | |
聽起來就很可怕 | |
1052 | |
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:50,000 | |
聽起來就很危險 | |
1053 | |
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,000 | |
那他有沒有可能借助資安院 | |
1054 | |
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:53,000 | |
TWSRC | |
1055 | |
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,000 | |
你們可不可以幫我們媒合 | |
1056 | |
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,000 | |
因為你那個只是通報而已 | |
1057 | |
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,000 | |
能不能幫我們媒合一些 | |
1058 | |
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,000 | |
就是accredited | |
1059 | |
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,000 | |
這個cyber security的service provider | |
1060 | |
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,000 | |
因為像很多產發局或什麼 | |
1061 | |
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,000 | |
他們有時候會做一些這種 | |
1062 | |
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,000 | |
撮合媒合的工作 | |
1063 | |
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,000 | |
有時候我們也有 | |
1064 | |
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:15,000 | |
那這個是在像台灣的資安主管的聯盟 | |
1065 | |
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,000 | |
CISO的聯盟等等 | |
1066 | |
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,000 | |
那這個我們的數位產業署 | |
1067 | |
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,000 | |
因為他們也主管資安產業 | |
1068 | |
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,000 | |
這部分都有相當多的資源來投入 | |
1069 | |
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,000 | |
太好了 | |
1070 | |
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,000 | |
這個我們為民服務 | |
1071 | |
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,000 | |
可不可以網址 | |
1072 | |
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,000 | |
雖然我們沒有業配是不能放網址的 | |
1073 | |
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,000 | |
但這個我想為民服務我們放一下 | |
1074 | |
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,000 | |
因為我覺得大家一起聯訪 | |
1075 | |
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,000 | |
我相信這也是我們這個節目製作單位聲浪 | |
1076 | |
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,000 | |
請大家支持聲浪 | |
1077 | |
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,000 | |
這個我們也一起來努力 | |
1078 | |
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,000 | |
讓台灣成為一個更 | |
1079 | |
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,000 | |
實體安全也數位安全的地方 | |
1080 | |
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,000 | |
那所以那AI的部分 | |
1081 | |
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,000 | |
你剛剛講的都是資安 | |
1082 | |
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,000 | |
對我剛剛講的都是AI | |
1083 | |
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,000 | |
用以AI制AI這樣的情況 | |
1084 | |
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,000 | |
那當然在就是我們日常的工作上面 | |
1085 | |
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,000 | |
我們其實已經會碰到很多 | |
1086 | |
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,000 | |
像什麼檢具 核銷 | |
1087 | |
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,000 | |
什麼之類之類 | |
1088 | |
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,000 | |
那公部門其實我們就算自己已經是全線上 | |
1089 | |
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,000 | |
我們包含密件公文都是線上簽核 | |
1090 | |
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,000 | |
但是並不能說跟我們所有互動的 | |
1091 | |
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,000 | |
別的公部門或者別的廠商 | |
1092 | |
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,000 | |
他一下子都用電子的方式 | |
1093 | |
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,000 | |
所以我們現在確實也有 | |
1094 | |
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,000 | |
就是如果他是印刷出來的 | |
1095 | |
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,000 | |
一些檢具 核銷 | |
1096 | |
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,000 | |
或什麼之類之類 | |
1097 | |
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,000 | |
那就是用一種很簡單的就是OCR的技術 | |
1098 | |
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,000 | |
那但他的好處是說 | |
1099 | |
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,000 | |
現在因為深層次AI真的是 | |
1100 | |
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,000 | |
在這方面是蠻穩定的 | |
1101 | |
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,000 | |
就是你要他 | |
1102 | |
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,000 | |
要求他給一個結構化資料出來 | |
1103 | |
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,000 | |
你甚至不用告訴他layout長什麼樣 | |
1104 | |
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,000 | |
他會自己去搞清楚 | |
1105 | |
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,000 | |
我們是用Gemini | |
1106 | |
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,000 | |
就是Google的 | |
1107 | |
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,000 | |
讚讚讚 | |
1108 | |
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,000 | |
我剛剛來錄音前才付了一筆錢 | |
1109 | |
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,000 | |
就是要用那個企業版的Gemini | |
1110 | |
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,000 | |
對 他現在也有開源的部分 | |
1111 | |
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,000 | |
企業版好像比較安全 | |
1112 | |
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,000 | |
Gemini有開源的部分嗎 | |
1113 | |
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,000 | |
他有小的開源的版本 | |
1114 | |
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,000 | |
小開源版本 | |
1115 | |
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,000 | |
每次跟部長錄音都有得到一些新消息 | |
1116 | |
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:02,000 | |
也是不錯 | |
1117 | |
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,000 | |
這也是屬於有做事 | |
1118 | |
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,000 | |
有做事而且沒事好不好 | |
1119 | |
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,000 | |
所以我想接下來當然還是很期待 | |
1120 | |
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,000 | |
就是怎麼樣用所謂的先進科技 | |
1121 | |
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,000 | |
先進的思維來做事情 | |
1122 | |
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,000 | |
讓大家可能無感的 | |
1123 | |
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,000 | |
讓生活提升變得更好 | |
1124 | |
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,000 | |
最後我們來到表單上的最後一題 | |
1125 | |
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,000 | |
但是如果還有一點時間 | |
1126 | |
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,000 | |
我們待會還有B面好不好 | |
1127 | |
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,000 | |
B side | |
1128 | |
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,000 | |
可以閒聊一下 | |
1129 | |
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,000 | |
我們在規劃上面 | |
1130 | |
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,000 | |
最後一題其實是有我很期待 | |
1131 | |
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,000 | |
就是說前面我們其實都是非常正向 | |
1132 | |
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,000 | |
就是說你有做什麼 | |
1133 | |
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:41,000 | |
你是誰 | |
1134 | |
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:42,000 | |
你怎麼樣怎麼樣 | |
1135 | |
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,000 | |
最後一題我們算是我們的企劃 | |
1136 | |
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,000 | |
各自都給我們留一點空間 | |
1137 | |
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,000 | |
就像我剛剛講的 | |
1138 | |
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,000 | |
我都常常跟部會首長 | |
1139 | |
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,000 | |
或者是一些所謂的長官 | |
1140 | |
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,000 | |
或者是官員 | |
1141 | |
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,000 | |
因為我是新人 | |
1142 | |
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,000 | |
老實說在醫院裡面 | |
1143 | |
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,000 | |
菜鳥慢飛 | |
1144 | |
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,000 | |
但是因為我的個性比較奇怪一點 | |
1145 | |
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,000 | |
就是我平常看起來就沒事沒事 | |
1146 | |
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,000 | |
但是有時候有些事情我就很在意 | |
1147 | |
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,000 | |
這個所謂很在意就是那種 | |
1148 | |
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,000 | |
我覺得踩到軟肋的那個地方 | |
1149 | |
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,000 | |
我就會跟部會首長或者是官員就說 | |
1150 | |
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,000 | |
如果上了質詢台 | |
1151 | |
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,000 | |
雖然我們剛剛聊得很愉快 | |
1152 | |
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,000 | |
但是上了質詢台 | |
1153 | |
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,000 | |
我的喉嚨就不是我的 | |
1154 | |
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,000 | |
我的舌頭也不是我的 | |
1155 | |
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,000 | |
為民喉舌 | |
1156 | |
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:35,000 | |
大家已經說好了 | |
1157 | |
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,000 | |
為民喉舌 | |
1158 | |
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,000 | |
所以我講出來的話也都是 | |
1159 | |
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,000 | |
我們不是亂講 | |
1160 | |
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,000 | |
我們一定是透過某些機制 | |
1161 | |
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,000 | |
收集到了民眾的想法 | |
1162 | |
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:45,000 | |
所以我們這樣講 | |
1163 | |
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,000 | |
所以同時部會或者是我們的政府 | |
1164 | |
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,000 | |
也不能覺得自己就是完美的 | |
1165 | |
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,000 | |
如果你是完美的 | |
1166 | |
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,000 | |
我們幹嘛選舉呢 | |
1167 | |
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,000 | |
我們幹嘛要有這個民意的監督呢 | |
1168 | |
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,000 | |
我們就回到清朝就好啦 | |
1169 | |
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,000 | |
因為他是完美的 | |
1170 | |
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,000 | |
所以一定會有可以進步的地方 | |
1171 | |
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,000 | |
所以我們就留了這一題 | |
1172 | |
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,000 | |
請寶柏和部長各自提出意見 | |
1173 | |
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,000 | |
我們也只有一件而已 | |
1174 | |
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,000 | |
不要不要求太多 | |
1175 | |
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,000 | |
說一部最應該做但還沒做的事 | |
1176 | |
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,000 | |
我們可以一起來討論怎麼做 | |
1177 | |
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,000 | |
所以這也是屬於我們寶柏朋友做的一部分 | |
1178 | |
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,000 | |
邀請到部長來談 | |
1179 | |
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,000 | |
太棒了 | |
1180 | |
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,000 | |
我覺得就是順序上面 | |
1181 | |
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,000 | |
在質詢之後來錄這一集 | |
1182 | |
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,000 | |
我覺得我沒有做到預先澄清 | |
1183 | |
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,000 | |
沒有做到pre-bunking | |
1184 | |
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,000 | |
應該是你質詢我以前 | |
1185 | |
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,000 | |
我們就主動來錄這一集 | |
1186 | |
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,000 | |
可以可以 | |
1187 | |
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,000 | |
下次我們再來做更好的協作 | |
1188 | |
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,000 | |
但我覺得這種預先澄清 | |
1189 | |
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,000 | |
真的是我們可以多做的 | |
1190 | |
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,000 | |
你是說你的檢討有包含我的部分 | |
1191 | |
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,000 | |
不是檢討你 | |
1192 | |
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,000 | |
是說因為我本來就知道你有節目 | |
1193 | |
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,000 | |
本來就知道會質詢 | |
1194 | |
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,000 | |
所以其實我應該不只對你 | |
1195 | |
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,000 | |
你也有說別的委員現在也有studio | |
1196 | |
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,000 | |
也有節目 | |
1197 | |
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,000 | |
所以應該是說 | |
1198 | |
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,000 | |
在委員開始質詢我之前 | |
1199 | |
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,000 | |
只要他們有這類的節目 | |
1200 | |
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,000 | |
我應該都要先去預先澄清 | |
1201 | |
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,000 | |
可能的誤解 | |
1202 | |
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,000 | |
不過這有點難 | |
1203 | |
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,000 | |
因為我也進去以後才知道 | |
1204 | |
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,000 | |
他那個什麼有什麼召委 | |
1205 | |
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,000 | |
召集委員的排案權 | |
1206 | |
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,000 | |
其實我們作為委員 | |
1207 | |
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,000 | |
我在某一個委員會 | |
1208 | |
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:16,000 | |
或我不在那個委員會 | |
1209 | |
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,000 | |
好像都有一點難知道 | |
1210 | |
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,000 | |
而且好像都 | |
1211 | |
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,000 | |
你會很早就知道你這個禮拜 | |
1212 | |
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,000 | |
就是說比如說現在是月初 | |
1213 | |
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,000 | |
你其實不知道你月底要不要去 | |
1214 | |
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,000 | |
對我是每個禮拜天才知道下個禮拜 | |
1215 | |
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,000 | |
所以很難啦 | |
1216 | |
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,000 | |
我們現在錄音3月21號 | |
1217 | |
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,000 | |
我播出的時候可能已經4月多了 | |
1218 | |
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,000 | |
這個有一點緩不濟急 | |
1219 | |
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,000 | |
所以應該是什麼 | |
1220 | |
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:39,000 | |
我搞個直播 | |
1221 | |
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:40,000 | |
對 直播 | |
1222 | |
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,000 | |
有個live | |
1223 | |
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,000 | |
委員叫我開直播 | |
1224 | |
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,000 | |
最近大家很常看的委員有直播 | |
1225 | |
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,000 | |
收看率也比較高的 | |
1226 | |
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,000 | |
有一點激烈 | |
1227 | |
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,000 | |
這個黃委員的 | |
1228 | |
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,000 | |
我是不太敢上 | |
1229 | |
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,000 | |
因為他真的反應也是有點快 | |
1230 | |
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:56,000 | |
我還在學習 | |
1231 | |
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,000 | |
當然你可以考慮 | |
1232 | |
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,000 | |
我們徐曉欣委員也有 | |
1233 | |
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,000 | |
民進黨的應該也有 | |
1234 | |
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,000 | |
反正我覺得直播現在是一個 | |
1235 | |
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:05,000 | |
還算蠻主流的工具 | |
1236 | |
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,000 | |
民進黨已經有新聞稿了 | |
1237 | |
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,000 | |
他說他們的青年工作會包含直播 | |
1238 | |
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,000 | |
叫什麼老闆給播嗎 | |
1239 | |
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,000 | |
老闆要我開直播 | |
1240 | |
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,000 | |
我剛剛就是這樣講的 | |
1241 | |
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,000 | |
老闆要我開直播 | |
1242 | |
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,000 | |
所以我們可以找到一些新方法 | |
1243 | |
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,000 | |
做一點防範於未然 | |
1244 | |
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,000 | |
而且這個防範於未然 | |
1245 | |
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,000 | |
還要再更前面一點 | |
1246 | |
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,000 | |
就是溝通的部分 | |
1247 | |
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,000 | |
那你這樣一講 | |
1248 | |
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,000 | |
我就會覺得我的建議好像有點弱 | |
1249 | |
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,000 | |
但是我是苦民所苦 | |
1250 | |
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,000 | |
為民喉舌 | |
1251 | |
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,000 | |
因為我現在是有一點擔心幾件事 | |
1252 | |
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,000 | |
第一個就是 | |
1253 | |
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,000 | |
有一些人現在我們在錄音的時候 | |
1254 | |
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,000 | |
他現在正在這個愛之鄉愛之田 | |
1255 | |
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,000 | |
然後在跟他以為Fall in love的對象 | |
1256 | |
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,000 | |
其實是AI在談戀愛 | |
1257 | |
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,000 | |
這是其中一個樣態 | |
1258 | |
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:51,000 | |
新的樣態 | |
1259 | |
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,000 | |
第二個樣態是 | |
1260 | |
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,000 | |
我一直在很多地方講 | |
1261 | |
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,000 | |
就是現在有很多的校園詐騙 | |
1262 | |
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,000 | |
他其實是外面的某些公司 | |
1263 | |
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,000 | |
然後他會針對學生喜歡的議題 | |
1264 | |
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,000 | |
譬如說投資 | |
1265 | |
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,000 | |
譬如說AI | |
1266 | |
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,000 | |
他會說我教你怎麼投資 | |
1267 | |
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,000 | |
然後還有一個更可怕的 | |
1268 | |
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,000 | |
就是說因為現在有很多詐騙 | |
1269 | |
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,000 | |
很多年輕人也被詐騙 | |
1270 | |
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,000 | |
IMB的受害者裡面也有很多大學生 | |
1271 | |
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,000 | |
然後就會有詐騙集團成立 | |
1272 | |
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:23,000 | |
防詐 防害 專家 | |
1273 | |
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,000 | |
什麼教你拿回你的被害金錢 | |
1274 | |
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,000 | |
有一個的網址還叫TW-165.com | |
1275 | |
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,000 | |
我覺得我真的很崩潰你知道嗎 | |
1276 | |
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,000 | |
這種 | |
1277 | |
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,000 | |
好這是第二個樣態 | |
1278 | |
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,000 | |
就是假裝來幫助你 | |
1279 | |
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,000 | |
但他其實是想要惡似害你 | |
1280 | |
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,000 | |
或者是想要再騙新的人 | |
1281 | |
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,000 | |
這是第二個樣態 | |
1282 | |
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,000 | |
第三個樣態其實我們質詢的時候 | |
1283 | |
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,000 | |
我有稍微提到 | |
1284 | |
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,000 | |
但是我們時間很短 | |
1285 | |
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,000 | |
那個嗶嗶叫一直嗶這樣 | |
1286 | |
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,000 | |
第三個樣態就是LINE群組 | |
1287 | |
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,000 | |
或者這種所謂的Close的 | |
1288 | |
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,000 | |
這種Message Group | |
1289 | |
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:56,000 | |
也不一定是LINE | |
1290 | |
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,000 | |
就是也有很多的聊天群組 | |
1291 | |
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,000 | |
他可能會假冒自己是某一些 | |
1292 | |
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,000 | |
大家認得的品牌 | |
1293 | |
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,000 | |
什麼XX銀行 XX金控 | |
1294 | |
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,000 | |
還有什麼幣X交易所等等 | |
1295 | |
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,000 | |
然後就說我是台X銀行的專員 | |
1296 | |
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:20,000 | |
我是整個幣X交易所的小天使 | |
1297 | |
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,000 | |
然後他就會去engage | |
1298 | |
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,000 | |
他會說 | |
1299 | |
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,000 | |
反正我其實沒有研究得很深 | |
1300 | |
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,000 | |
但我知道這個樣態 | |
1301 | |
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,000 | |
然後我其實覺得很擔心 | |
1302 | |
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,000 | |
我知道有某一些 | |
1303 | |
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,000 | |
境外正在努力落地的 | |
1304 | |
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,000 | |
全球很大的交易所 | |
1305 | |
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,000 | |
他們有一個做法我覺得很不錯 | |
1306 | |
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,000 | |
就是他們會成立一個verify的 | |
1307 | |
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,000 | |
就是驗證的平台 | |
1308 | |
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,000 | |
你只要上到這個平台上 | |
1309 | |
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,000 | |
有人說 比如說有人傳訊息給你說 | |
1310 | |
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,000 | |
我是幣X小天使 | |
1311 | |
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,000 | |
你就看他的LINE ID跟帳號 | |
1312 | |
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:52,000 | |
然後你就 | |
1313 | |
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:53,000 | |
或者他的Email | |
1314 | |
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:54,000 | |
或者whatever | |
1315 | |
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,000 | |
就是any kind of他的 | |
1316 | |
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,000 | |
聯絡的那個管道的information | |
1317 | |
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:58,000 | |
然後你就上這個網站 | |
1318 | |
00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,000 | |
你就輸入進去 | |
1319 | |
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,000 | |
他就會告訴你 | |
1320 | |
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,000 | |
他是不是真的被他hired的 | |
1321 | |
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,000 | |
就是被他聘僱的這個 | |
1322 | |
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,000 | |
official 官方的聯絡人 | |
1323 | |
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,000 | |
那你一查你發現他不是 | |
1324 | |
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,000 | |
你就知道他騙人這樣 | |
1325 | |
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,000 | |
那我覺得這個邏輯跟體系 | |
1326 | |
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,000 | |
應該可以apply到更多的地方 | |
1327 | |
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:17,000 | |
台灣應該 | |
1328 | |
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,000 | |
當然我覺得這有時候又會 | |
1329 | |
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,000 | |
衝突到什麼大政府小政府 | |
1330 | |
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,000 | |
但我覺得過渡期 | |
1331 | |
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:23,000 | |
我們可以 | |
1332 | |
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,000 | |
是不是政府可以來協助 | |
1333 | |
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,000 | |
就是說有一些verify的 | |
1334 | |
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,000 | |
資安的團隊 | |
1335 | |
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,000 | |
那大學生要去請 | |
1336 | |
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,000 | |
你知道大學生有時候社團 | |
1337 | |
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,000 | |
又沒有多少錢請演講 | |
1338 | |
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:36,000 | |
他也請不到 | |
1339 | |
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,000 | |
假設請不到大師 | |
1340 | |
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:39,000 | |
他說明看到那個廣告 | |
1341 | |
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,000 | |
我們要推廣防詐 | |
1342 | |
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:42,000 | |
然後他就請了那個 | |
1343 | |
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,000 | |
假的防詐專家來演講 | |
1344 | |
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,000 | |
那如果我們有一個 | |
1345 | |
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,000 | |
這種verify的機制 | |
1346 | |
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,000 | |
他就可以去查說 | |
1347 | |
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,000 | |
這個網址是不是被資安院董事長 | |
1348 | |
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,000 | |
或資安院認可的 | |
1349 | |
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,000 | |
你理解我意思 | |
1350 | |
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,000 | |
有沒有一個這種verify | |
1351 | |
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,000 | |
而且更多金融業的 | |
1352 | |
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,000 | |
資安行業的 | |
1353 | |
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,000 | |
這個有沒有機會來做到 | |
1354 | |
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,000 | |
這個絕對不是say好的 | |
1355 | |
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,000 | |
但是這就是我們接下來 | |
1356 | |
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,000 | |
打詐專發的一個主要政見 | |
1357 | |
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,000 | |
請說 | |
1358 | |
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,000 | |
現在大概四月 | |
1359 | |
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,000 | |
內政部會有一個 | |
1360 | |
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:12,000 | |
全面性的打詐專發 | |
1361 | |
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,000 | |
那我們是負責裡面 | |
1362 | |
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,000 | |
關於網路廣告的那個部分 | |
1363 | |
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,000 | |
現在當然所謂投資廣告 | |
1364 | |
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,000 | |
現在理論上要實名制 | |
1365 | |
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,000 | |
大家如果有看一些 | |
1366 | |
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,000 | |
YouTube的名人詐騙的話 | |
1367 | |
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,000 | |
其實他那個確實都有名字 | |
1368 | |
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,000 | |
可是他的名字就跟某些名人 | |
1369 | |
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:30,000 | |
他就差一個字 | |
1370 | |
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:31,000 | |
聲音一樣 | |
1371 | |
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,000 | |
或變成簡體字 | |
1372 | |
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,000 | |
或怎麼樣 | |
1373 | |
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,000 | |
所以其實你猛一看 | |
1374 | |
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,000 | |
還是覺得是那個名人 | |
1375 | |
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,000 | |
那為什麼就是因為 | |
1376 | |
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,000 | |
他去看這個實名的時候 | |
1377 | |
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,000 | |
他是自己說了算 | |
1378 | |
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:41,000 | |
他就算需要付一些證件 | |
1379 | |
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:42,000 | |
現在AI合成那些證件 | |
1380 | |
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,000 | |
完全不是問題 | |
1381 | |
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,000 | |
所以只是靠身分證正反面 | |
1382 | |
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:48,000 | |
或拍護照什麼 | |
1383 | |
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,000 | |
已經幾乎沒有意義了 | |
1384 | |
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,000 | |
有些比較sophisticate | |
1385 | |
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:52,000 | |
就是你要連轉左邊 | |
1386 | |
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,000 | |
轉右邊 | |
1387 | |
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,000 | |
那個也已經完全被繞過了 | |
1388 | |
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,000 | |
所以我們接下來就會要求說 | |
1389 | |
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,000 | |
這些網路廣告 | |
1390 | |
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,000 | |
他真的在做實名 | |
1391 | |
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,000 | |
KYC認證的時候 | |
1392 | |
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,000 | |
就是要有數位簽章 | |
1393 | |
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:04,000 | |
所以除非你名字剛好 | |
1394 | |
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,000 | |
就是叫唐豐 | |
1395 | |
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:07,000 | |
不然以後你就不能夠 | |
1396 | |
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,000 | |
再用唐豐兩個字來登廣告了 | |
1397 | |
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,000 | |
因為我們現在已經有一個 | |
1398 | |
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,000 | |
很好的數位簽章的基礎建設 | |
1399 | |
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,000 | |
就自然憑證跟行動自然憑證 | |
1400 | |
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,000 | |
以前是比較沒有電商 | |
1401 | |
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,000 | |
或者是廣告平台來用 | |
1402 | |
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,000 | |
但我們現在也跟內政部合作 | |
1403 | |
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,000 | |
去開放他們 | |
1404 | |
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,000 | |
現在就可以用行動自然憑證 | |
1405 | |
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,000 | |
來做這一方面的簽章的驗章 | |
1406 | |
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:29,000 | |
所以第一個 | |
1407 | |
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,000 | |
我很同意委員的看法 | |
1408 | |
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:32,000 | |
就是說不管是機器人 | |
1409 | |
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,000 | |
假裝是真人給你談戀愛 | |
1410 | |
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,000 | |
還是不是投資大師 | |
1411 | |
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,000 | |
假裝成投資大師要賣書給你 | |
1412 | |
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,000 | |
還是LINE群組冒充什麼名人跟你私聊 | |
1413 | |
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,000 | |
到最後如果我們這些電商平台 | |
1414 | |
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,000 | |
跟廣告平台都可以有一個 | |
1415 | |
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:47,000 | |
你有數位簽章才是人 | |
1416 | |
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,000 | |
其他都是機器人的基本想法 | |
1417 | |
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:51,000 | |
這個我覺得就可以解決 | |
1418 | |
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,000 | |
一大部分的 | |
1419 | |
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,000 | |
剛剛你講的這三個不同的太陽 | |
1420 | |
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,000 | |
好吧 | |
1421 | |
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,000 | |
這個我想我們也是心有靈犀 | |
1422 | |
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,000 | |
不管是英雄還是英雌 | |
1423 | |
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,000 | |
都所見略同 | |
1424 | |
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,000 | |
但是我先預告 | |
1425 | |
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,000 | |
就是說我目前還是一個小政府主義者 | |
1426 | |
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,000 | |
我覺得尤其是emerging technology | |
1427 | |
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,000 | |
就是先進科技 | |
1428 | |
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:14,000 | |
因為它變得很快 | |
1429 | |
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,000 | |
所以有時候政府不小心管太多 | |
1430 | |
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,000 | |
反而會不小心多做了一些事 | |
1431 | |
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,000 | |
打詐專法利益是對的 | |
1432 | |
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,000 | |
但是你們現在要瞄準廣告的行業 | |
1433 | |
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:28,000 | |
老實說 | |
1434 | |
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,000 | |
我們一定要來多聽聽各行各業的看法 | |
1435 | |
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,000 | |
有時候不小心衝出去 | |
1436 | |
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,000 | |
大家會很緊張 | |
1437 | |
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,000 | |
所以我先預告一下 | |
1438 | |
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:40,000 | |
就是我們要一起來多做好溝通 | |
1439 | |
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,000 | |
你剛剛已經講了 | |
1440 | |
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,000 | |
你說要防患未然 | |
1441 | |
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,000 | |
而且要防患未然工作者 | |
1442 | |
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,000 | |
打詐專法還沒出以前就再來上一次節目 | |
1443 | |
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,000 | |
防患未然的工作者 | |
1444 | |
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,000 | |
防患未然的溝通 | |
1445 | |
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,000 | |
好不好 | |
1446 | |
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,000 | |
所以這一點我先預告 | |
1447 | |
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,000 | |
希望真的可以做到 | |
1448 | |
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,000 | |
同時我覺得我要echo你一件事 | |
1449 | |
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,000 | |
行動自然人憑證 | |
1450 | |
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,000 | |
這個還是要拍拍手 | |
1451 | |
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,000 | |
原因是因為我現在好像進去了以後 | |
1452 | |
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,000 | |
就是到立法院以後 | |
1453 | |
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,000 | |
我們好像還要再做一次財產申報 | |
1454 | |
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,000 | |
這一次是要更認真的 | |
1455 | |
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,000 | |
所以我們就要用自然人憑證 | |
1456 | |
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,000 | |
好像要到某個系統 | |
1457 | |
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:19,000 | |
然後驗證我是我 | |
1458 | |
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:23,000 | |
然後我同意監察院好像會調一些 | |
1459 | |
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:24,000 | |
會接你的資料 | |
1460 | |
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,000 | |
會調一些我的資料 | |
1461 | |
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:31,000 | |
所以我發現我的自然人憑證已失了 | |
1462 | |
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:37,000 | |
所以我就只好去區公所 | |
1463 | |
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,000 | |
很幸運的是 | |
1464 | |
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,000 | |
我們現在是任何一個區公所都可以辦 | |
1465 | |
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,000 | |
我現在都開始叫我辦公室的人都去辦 | |
1466 | |
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,000 | |
原因是因為行動自然人憑證很酷 | |
1467 | |
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,000 | |
我先講我就去辦了 | |
1468 | |
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,000 | |
我覺得速度比我想像中的快 | |
1469 | |
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,000 | |
雖然我本來你知道我們這種阿宅 | |
1470 | |
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,000 | |
尤其是區塊鏈世界的阿宅 | |
1471 | |
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,000 | |
很痛苦就是說要去實體的世界裡辦某些東西 | |
1472 | |
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,000 | |
但我還是去了 | |
1473 | |
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,000 | |
我本來已經預留了一個四個小時 | |
1474 | |
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,000 | |
因為我想說可能要排隊啊什麼 | |
1475 | |
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:05,000 | |
然後我就去了 | |
1476 | |
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,000 | |
很快就排到了 | |
1477 | |
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,000 | |
謝謝我們的政府在某些效率的提升上 | |
1478 | |
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:10,000 | |
有專門的櫃檯 | |
1479 | |
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,000 | |
看起來是有在做 | |
1480 | |
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,000 | |
但是小不滿意 | |
1481 | |
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,000 | |
就是還是要簽很多名 | |
1482 | |
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,000 | |
還是花費了一些紙張 | |
1483 | |
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,000 | |
但是所以我們一起來更快推電子簽章 | |
1484 | |
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,000 | |
然後呢很快就拿到實體的卡 | |
1485 | |
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,000 | |
接著呢我發現一件驚天動地的事實 | |
1486 | |
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,000 | |
就是實體自然人憑證 | |
1487 | |
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,000 | |
竟然可以拿到iPhone手機上面去 | |
1488 | |
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,000 | |
去敲一下去感應 | |
1489 | |
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,000 | |
沒錯NFC | |
1490 | |
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,000 | |
很多人不知道耶 | |
1491 | |
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,000 | |
這是以前的自然人憑證就有還是後來才有 | |
1492 | |
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:46,000 | |
是後來幾年才有 | |
1493 | |
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,000 | |
所以這個叫新版自然人憑證 | |
1494 | |
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,000 | |
對沒錯 | |
1495 | |
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,000 | |
然後呢我就去下載了一個 | |
1496 | |
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,000 | |
我偷偷在研究你們那個數位錢包 | |
1497 | |
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,000 | |
然後還有一些什麼投票 | |
1498 | |
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,000 | |
這個什麼我不知道你們那個叫 | |
1499 | |
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:05,000 | |
TWID還是TWDIT | |
1500 | |
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,000 | |
這個分散式的identity | |
1501 | |
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,000 | |
然後呢我就敲一下 | |
1502 | |
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,000 | |
真的感應到了 | |
1503 | |
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,000 | |
然後你們好像有在流程上做了一些優化 | |
1504 | |
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:20,000 | |
就是比別的商業化的網站還多做了一點無縫 | |
1505 | |
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,000 | |
然後呢我就打開APP | |
1506 | |
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,000 | |
然後綁定了我的錢包 | |
1507 | |
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,000 | |
我雖然有點緊張 | |
1508 | |
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:27,000 | |
但是我還是綁了 | |
1509 | |
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,000 | |
綁完以後你就跳出說 | |
1510 | |
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:33,000 | |
我們這個Web3的身份什麼驗證已經完成這樣 | |
1511 | |
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,000 | |
對 | |
1512 | |
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:35,000 | |
我覺得不錯啊 | |
1513 | |
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:36,000 | |
對啊 | |
1514 | |
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,000 | |
是不是 | |
1515 | |
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:38,000 | |
這樣你以後做千頁章 | |
1516 | |
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,000 | |
這個我們國家都不知道耶 | |
1517 | |
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:41,000 | |
就是完全分散式的 | |
1518 | |
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,000 | |
但是我就是有一點 | |
1519 | |
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,000 | |
我是一則一席一則以憂啦 | |
1520 | |
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,000 | |
就一則一席說 | |
1521 | |
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,000 | |
哇原來在我們不知道的時候 | |
1522 | |
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,000 | |
你們其實擁抱了Web3 | |
1523 | |
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:53,000 | |
其實還做得蠻前面的 | |
1524 | |
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,000 | |
因為這樣以後我們有可能拿空頭 | |
1525 | |
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,000 | |
可以是用我自然人的身份 | |
1526 | |
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,000 | |
而且是匿名的吧 | |
1527 | |
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,000 | |
對就是零知識的情況 | |
1528 | |
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,000 | |
但是同一個自然人不能拿兩次 | |
1529 | |
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:05,000 | |
對對對就是我可以做到更好的 | |
1530 | |
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,000 | |
自然人空頭 | |
1531 | |
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,000 | |
自然人空頭 | |
1532 | |
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,000 | |
或者是什麼NFT領取這樣 | |
1533 | |
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,000 | |
那我覺得這是喜的部分 | |
1534 | |
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,000 | |
但憂的部分是 | |
1535 | |
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,000 | |
好像還是少人知道 | |
1536 | |
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:17,000 | |
所以 | |
1537 | |
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,000 | |
有一點太前面了 | |
1538 | |
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,000 | |
我覺得還好啊 | |
1539 | |
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,000 | |
你看我的節目也很前面啊 | |
1540 | |
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,000 | |
但是聽眾現在也是交換粉絲啊 | |
1541 | |
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:25,000 | |
我自我鼓勵啦 | |
1542 | |
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,000 | |
對不起 | |
1543 | |
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:27,000 | |
所以是不是 | |
1544 | |
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,000 | |
我亂講 | |
1545 | |
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,000 | |
就是說數位部 | |
1546 | |
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,000 | |
大家可能會覺得我在酸你的 | |
1547 | |
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,000 | |
但我只是說 | |
1548 | |
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,000 | |
數位部有一些地方有花一些錢 | |
1549 | |
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,000 | |
但是是不是也要多花一點時間 | |
1550 | |
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,000 | |
還有有一些資源 | |
1551 | |
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,000 | |
因為我記得2024或2025的 | |
1552 | |
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,000 | |
經費應該都有比前一年再更高 | |
1553 | |
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:47,000 | |
就是公共建設的經費 | |
1554 | |
00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,000 | |
那能不能有一些經費是拿來 | |
1555 | |
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,000 | |
做一些防範未然的 | |
1556 | |
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:53,000 | |
防範未然的溝通 | |
1557 | |
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,000 | |
就是行動自然人憑證的應用的社會溝通 | |
1558 | |
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:58,000 | |
我不知道啦 | |
1559 | |
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:00,000 | |
我的節目是不接受業配的 | |
1560 | |
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:01,000 | |
因為我現在是公僕 | |
1561 | |
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,000 | |
但是有很多的阿宅網紅 | |
1562 | |
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,000 | |
他們也許很想了解 | |
1563 | |
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,000 | |
他們說不定這樣逼一下 | |
1564 | |
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,000 | |
那其實蠻快的嘛 | |
1565 | |
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:10,000 | |
你現場弄給他看 | |
1566 | |
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,000 | |
他可能就很驚喜 | |
1567 | |
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,000 | |
我們來拍60秒短片 | |
1568 | |
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,000 | |
我們嗎 | |
1569 | |
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,000 | |
你要去跟更多人合作 | |
1570 | |
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,000 | |
大家都是朋友 | |
1571 | |
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,000 | |
所以希望溝通上 | |
1572 | |
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,000 | |
我們可以來做得更好 | |
1573 | |
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,000 | |
結果我們的B賽只剩下一點點時間 | |
1574 | |
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,000 | |
接下來是B賽 | |
1575 | |
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,000 | |
就是閒聊 | |
1576 | |
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,000 | |
首先我們來聊一下 | |
1577 | |
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,000 | |
你剛剛講的沒做事就是 | |
1578 | |
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,000 | |
沒出事就是有做事 | |
1579 | |
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,000 | |
我其實在帥上有想要跟你閒聊這件事 | |
1580 | |
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,000 | |
就是說 | |
1581 | |
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,000 | |
這個真的是B賽 | |
1582 | |
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,000 | |
我以前一直在想那個麥田圈的問題 | |
1583 | |
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:48,000 | |
大家不是都說 | |
1584 | |
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,000 | |
不知道為什麼麥田圈 | |
1585 | |
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:51,000 | |
我都有點懷疑 | |
1586 | |
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,000 | |
這是B賽喔 | |
1587 | |
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:54,000 | |
大家如果覺得不知道我在講什麼 | |
1588 | |
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:55,000 | |
就可以關掉了 | |
1589 | |
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,000 | |
就可以關掉退出 | |
1590 | |
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:58,000 | |
我都有點懷疑 | |
1591 | |
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,000 | |
麥田圈其實是某一種intervention | |
1592 | |
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:02,000 | |
就是一種介入 | |
1593 | |
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,000 | |
他要有介入有麥田圈 | |
1594 | |
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,000 | |
我們才會沒事 | |
1595 | |
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:08,000 | |
所以 | |
1596 | |
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,000 | |
你理解我意思嗎 | |
1597 | |
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:12,000 | |
了解護身符的概念 | |
1598 | |
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:13,000 | |
你覺得咧 | |
1599 | |
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,000 | |
那種玄學的 | |
1600 | |
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,000 | |
你怎麼看 | |
1601 | |
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,000 | |
對啊 | |
1602 | |
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:18,000 | |
你這麼聰明 | |
1603 | |
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,000 | |
你應該會覺得 | |
1604 | |
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,000 | |
麥田圈為什麼有那個圖案 | |
1605 | |
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,000 | |
又那麼顯眼 | |
1606 | |
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,000 | |
可是我們又感覺不到 | |
1607 | |
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,000 | |
他到底是拿來幹嘛的 | |
1608 | |
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,000 | |
還是數位部長不能談論這麼 | |
1609 | |
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,000 | |
跟數位部沒有關的議題 | |
1610 | |
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,000 | |
不過其實我覺得 | |
1611 | |
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,000 | |
他作為一個 | |
1612 | |
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,000 | |
就是大家會討論 | |
1613 | |
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,000 | |
而且並沒有一個定論的現象 | |
1614 | |
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,000 | |
某種程度上確實可以凝聚社會 | |
1615 | |
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,000 | |
因為在很多現在的西方民主國家 | |
1616 | |
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,000 | |
不管什麼事情 | |
1617 | |
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,000 | |
他到最後就會變成 | |
1618 | |
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,000 | |
一個黨說是這樣 | |
1619 | |
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,000 | |
另外一個黨就一定要說不是這樣 | |
1620 | |
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,000 | |
但是就是會有一些這種 | |
1621 | |
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,000 | |
我們叫credibly neutral | |
1622 | |
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,000 | |
就是確實他跟這個黨派或意識形態 | |
1623 | |
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,000 | |
真的沒關係的事情出現的時候 | |
1624 | |
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,000 | |
反而可以讓社會可以 | |
1625 | |
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,000 | |
有一些共同的話題 | |
1626 | |
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:04,000 | |
當然台灣是很特別 | |
1627 | |
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,000 | |
就是說我們遭受到訊息攻擊 | |
1628 | |
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,000 | |
是全世界最多 | |
1629 | |
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:08,000 | |
但是我們選完之後 | |
1630 | |
00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:10,000 | |
三個黨彼此互相喜歡的程度 | |
1631 | |
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,000 | |
好像變高了 | |
1632 | |
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,000 | |
所以這個真的是在世界上很少見 | |
1633 | |
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:15,000 | |
但確實在西方的民主國家 | |
1634 | |
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:18,000 | |
多一點這種大家沒有定論的事情 | |
1635 | |
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,000 | |
然後可以跨越黨派 | |
1636 | |
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:20,000 | |
我覺得蠻好的 | |
1637 | |
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,000 | |
我看到你的同仁在微笑 | |
1638 | |
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,000 | |
這就是所謂部長版的 | |
1639 | |
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,000 | |
麥田娟傳奇的回答 | |
1640 | |
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,000 | |
請大家擁抱一下這樣的回答 | |
1641 | |
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:31,000 | |
跨越多樣性的協作 | |
1642 | |
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,000 | |
然後呢 | |
1643 | |
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,000 | |
這個我還是很好奇 | |
1644 | |
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,000 | |
因為我不知道你玩過Vision Pro了沒 | |
1645 | |
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:38,000 | |
還沒有 | |
1646 | |
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,000 | |
你要借我玩嗎 | |
1647 | |
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:40,000 | |
可以啊 | |
1648 | |
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,000 | |
來我辦公室玩 | |
1649 | |
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,000 | |
可以吧 | |
1650 | |
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,000 | |
上次你有提前來過一次 | |
1651 | |
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,000 | |
有有有 | |
1652 | |
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,000 | |
那時候我好像還沒拿到 | |
1653 | |
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,000 | |
還是你說放在家裡充電 | |
1654 | |
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,000 | |
對對對 | |
1655 | |
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,000 | |
這個下次來一下 | |
1656 | |
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,000 | |
但你沒玩過 | |
1657 | |
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,000 | |
我們就聊不了這個議題 | |
1658 | |
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,000 | |
對不對 | |
1659 | |
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:56,000 | |
沒關係我可以想像 | |
1660 | |
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,000 | |
什麼Vision Pro的未來 | |
1661 | |
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:58,000 | |
那你怎麼看 | |
1662 | |
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,000 | |
就是說這個虛擬化的未來 | |
1663 | |
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:03,000 | |
我跟你講 | |
1664 | |
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,000 | |
它那個Persona | |
1665 | |
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,000 | |
你應該要自己 | |
1666 | |
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,000 | |
叫你朋友去買一台 | |
1667 | |
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,000 | |
因為它是一個很特殊的設計 | |
1668 | |
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:13,000 | |
它很親密 | |
1669 | |
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,000 | |
它是一個比iPhone更親密的裝置 | |
1670 | |
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,000 | |
iPhone跟你的親密程度 | |
1671 | |
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:20,000 | |
只有Face ID跟指紋 | |
1672 | |
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:21,000 | |
還有你的一些帳號密碼 | |
1673 | |
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,000 | |
但是Vision Pro跟你的親密程度 | |
1674 | |
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:25,000 | |
是你的虹膜 | |
1675 | |
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,000 | |
也就是它是世界上 | |
1676 | |
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:29,000 | |
最精密的了解 | |
1677 | |
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,000 | |
你真的是唐鳳的裝置 | |
1678 | |
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:32,000 | |
之外呢 | |
1679 | |
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:34,000 | |
它認得你的虹膜以後 | |
1680 | |
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,000 | |
它會幫唯一的 | |
1681 | |
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,000 | |
就是裝置擁有者 | |
1682 | |
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,000 | |
也是裡面的那個帳號登入人 | |
1683 | |
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,000 | |
它會幫你建一個虛擬的Persona | |
1684 | |
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,000 | |
虛擬人你知道嗎 | |
1685 | |
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:48,000 | |
對就是在Meta那邊叫Codec Avatar | |
1686 | |
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,000 | |
那個我就比較知道 | |
1687 | |
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,000 | |
然後在Apple叫Persona | |
1688 | |
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:53,000 | |
就是所謂的 | |
1689 | |
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,000 | |
就是虛擬替身的意思 | |
1690 | |
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:56,000 | |
我跟你講 | |
1691 | |
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,000 | |
那真的是很誇張 | |
1692 | |
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,000 | |
就是你戴上去 | |
1693 | |
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,000 | |
我描述一下 | |
1694 | |
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,000 | |
你戴上去 | |
1695 | |
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:03,000 | |
然後你就說 | |
1696 | |
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:04,000 | |
它說帳號登入成功 | |
1697 | |
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,000 | |
你要建立你的虛擬替身嗎 | |
1698 | |
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:08,000 | |
因為你戴在眼鏡的時候 | |
1699 | |
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,000 | |
你沒辦法跟別人FaceTime | |
1700 | |
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,000 | |
因為沒有鏡頭可以拍你 | |
1701 | |
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,000 | |
所以它只能用一大堆的Sensor | |
1702 | |
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,000 | |
去感應你的臉的動作 | |
1703 | |
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,000 | |
然後它必須先建一個虛擬的膜 | |
1704 | |
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:18,000 | |
你知道它怎麼做 | |
1705 | |
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:19,000 | |
它是 | |
1706 | |
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,000 | |
它說好我現在幫你建虛擬替身 | |
1707 | |
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:22,000 | |
請你把它拿下來 | |
1708 | |
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,000 | |
然後反過來 | |
1709 | |
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,000 | |
用Vision Pro看你自己 | |
1710 | |
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:26,000 | |
因為它上面有很多攝影機嘛 | |
1711 | |
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:28,000 | |
然後它就說請往上看 | |
1712 | |
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:29,000 | |
請往下看 | |
1713 | |
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,000 | |
然後戴上去 | |
1714 | |
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,000 | |
大概一分鐘內它就建好 | |
1715 | |
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,000 | |
我跟你講那個虛擬替身 | |
1716 | |
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,000 | |
超像的 | |
1717 | |
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,000 | |
它的那個 | |
1718 | |
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:39,000 | |
就是你知道 | |
1719 | |
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:40,000 | |
怎麼看一個替身 | |
1720 | |
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,000 | |
就是最零階段 | |
1721 | |
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,000 | |
就是嘟嘴會不會反應 | |
1722 | |
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:45,000 | |
就是你嘟嘴 | |
1723 | |
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:46,000 | |
可是你的虛擬替身 | |
1724 | |
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,000 | |
在手機上或什麼 | |
1725 | |
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:48,000 | |
沒有嘟嘴 | |
1726 | |
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:49,000 | |
這是最弱的 | |
1727 | |
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,000 | |
再來有嘟嘴 | |
1728 | |
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:52,000 | |
可是沒有吐舌頭 | |
1729 | |
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:53,000 | |
這是第二級 | |
1730 | |
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,000 | |
第三級呢 | |
1731 | |
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,000 | |
就是你可以嘟一半 | |
1732 | |
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,000 | |
就是你可以很微妙 | |
1733 | |
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,000 | |
然後你舌頭可以歪來歪去 | |
1734 | |
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,000 | |
像那個iPhone的Memoji | |
1735 | |
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,000 | |
就只能吐或沒吐 | |
1736 | |
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,000 | |
它沒有辦法歪舌頭 | |
1737 | |
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,000 | |
它的關節比較小 | |
1738 | |
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,000 | |
Persona是 | |
1739 | |
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,000 | |
完全就是你 | |
1740 | |
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,000 | |
然後我真的用那個東西 | |
1741 | |
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,000 | |
打FaceTime給朋友 | |
1742 | |
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,000 | |
他沒有發現那是假的 | |
1743 | |
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,000 | |
但我們沒有要討論AI防詐 | |
1744 | |
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,000 | |
我只是想說 | |
1745 | |
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,000 | |
我跟你講 | |
1746 | |
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,000 | |
那個是我就算借你玩 | |
1747 | |
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,000 | |
你也感應不到啦 | |
1748 | |
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,000 | |
所以 | |
1749 | |
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,000 | |
就是我們的B賽的最後一塊 | |
1750 | |
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,000 | |
就是說 | |
1751 | |
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,000 | |
很好奇數位部的部長 | |
1752 | |
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,000 | |
怎麼看這個 | |
1753 | |
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,000 | |
虛擬世界Metaverse | |
1754 | |
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:39,000 | |
因為2015年 | |
1755 | |
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,000 | |
我們台灣的 | |
1756 | |
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:42,000 | |
不要曾經啦 | |
1757 | |
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:44,000 | |
就是我們台灣的某上市櫃公司 | |
1758 | |
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,000 | |
喊出這個VR元年這樣 | |
1759 | |
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,000 | |
結果過了大概八九年 | |
1760 | |
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:51,000 | |
好像 | |
1761 | |
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,000 | |
過了八九年 | |
1762 | |
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:53,000 | |
蘋果也不用這個字了 | |
1763 | |
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:54,000 | |
對 蘋果不用這個字 | |
1764 | |
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,000 | |
他說空間運算元年 | |
1765 | |
00:57:58,000 --> 00:57:59,000 | |
部長怎麼看 | |
1766 | |
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,000 | |
部長怎麼看就是說 | |
1767 | |
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:03,000 | |
這個虛擬時代會來臨嗎 | |
1768 | |
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,000 | |
我們有沒有要 | |
1769 | |
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:07,000 | |
關注什麼啊 | |
1770 | |
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:08,000 | |
小心什麼啊 | |
1771 | |
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,000 | |
會不會大家以後 | |
1772 | |
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:11,000 | |
而且我跟你講 | |
1773 | |
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:13,000 | |
那個戴上去的第一秒 | |
1774 | |
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:16,000 | |
我真的有零點一秒的時間 | |
1775 | |
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,000 | |
我覺得我沒戴 | |
1776 | |
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:19,000 | |
無感 | |
1777 | |
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:22,000 | |
對 因為他的C數真的很強 | |
1778 | |
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,000 | |
好 所以你怎麼看這個下一步 | |
1779 | |
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,000 | |
對 我想有兩個可以分享的點 | |
1780 | |
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:30,000 | |
一個是說 | |
1781 | |
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:33,000 | |
對大部分要坐很久的飛機 | |
1782 | |
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,000 | |
而且像我調時差還很慢的人來講 | |
1783 | |
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:38,000 | |
這個是far more preferable | |
1784 | |
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:39,000 | |
我絕對比較喜歡戴這個 | |
1785 | |
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,000 | |
而不是還要出國調時差 | |
1786 | |
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,000 | |
所以其實對這種 | |
1787 | |
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,000 | |
長距離的協同工作 | |
1788 | |
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:48,000 | |
尤其是需要創意式的工作 | |
1789 | |
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,000 | |
我們之前有看過 | |
1790 | |
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,000 | |
應該Nature | |
1791 | |
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:52,000 | |
有一個paper是說 | |
1792 | |
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,000 | |
如果已經認識的人 | |
1793 | |
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,000 | |
那視訊也許工作效率 | |
1794 | |
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,000 | |
是差不多跟面對面 | |
1795 | |
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,000 | |
但是只能做收斂性的 | |
1796 | |
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:01,000 | |
就一旦要做創意發想 | |
1797 | |
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,000 | |
這個二維的螢幕就不夠用了 | |
1798 | |
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,000 | |
所以你要跨越長距離 | |
1799 | |
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,000 | |
又要做創造性的協作的時候 | |
1800 | |
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:08,000 | |
這種device | |
1801 | |
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,000 | |
我覺得它是在一個sweet spot | |
1802 | |
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,000 | |
就是因為反正機票也滿貴的嘛 | |
1803 | |
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:14,000 | |
所以比起來 | |
1804 | |
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,000 | |
Vision Pro好像也還好 | |
1805 | |
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:17,000 | |
所以這是一件事情 | |
1806 | |
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:19,000 | |
那第二件事情我覺得說 | |
1807 | |
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:21,000 | |
像這樣子的Codec Avatar | |
1808 | |
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,000 | |
或者是我們說 | |
1809 | |
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,000 | |
Digital Twin Digital Double等等 | |
1810 | |
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,000 | |
其實它接下來還有一個 | |
1811 | |
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:27,000 | |
很重要的是說 | |
1812 | |
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,000 | |
它可以讓人跟人之間的情感交流 | |
1813 | |
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:32,000 | |
變得比較自然 | |
1814 | |
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:33,000 | |
也就是說 | |
1815 | |
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:35,000 | |
你現在互動的當然是 | |
1816 | |
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,000 | |
別人的FaceTime的Avatar | |
1817 | |
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:39,000 | |
但是我們也可以想像說 | |
1818 | |
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,000 | |
我們也可以創造出一些 | |
1819 | |
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:42,000 | |
就是純AI的 | |
1820 | |
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,000 | |
但是那個並不是用來騙你的 | |
1821 | |
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,000 | |
而是說我現在就希望說 | |
1822 | |
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,000 | |
有一個能夠傾聽我的 | |
1823 | |
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,000 | |
一個類似諮商的朋友 | |
1824 | |
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,000 | |
或者代替我去開一個很無聊的會 | |
1825 | |
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,000 | |
送一個分身出去之類之類 | |
1826 | |
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:59,000 | |
等到我們跟這個Device的互動 | |
1827 | |
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:00,000 | |
就像你說的 | |
1828 | |
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,000 | |
就是非常親密的話 | |
1829 | |
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,000 | |
它其實會有我們的叫Reward Model | |
1830 | |
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:05,000 | |
就是什麼會讓我們高興 | |
1831 | |
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,000 | |
什麼會讓我們不高興 | |
1832 | |
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:07,000 | |
那這個時候 | |
1833 | |
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,000 | |
這件事情它是Personal Computing | |
1834 | |
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,000 | |
就是這是我的個人電腦 | |
1835 | |
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:13,000 | |
我的手機 | |
1836 | |
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:14,000 | |
是我自己的延伸 | |
1837 | |
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,000 | |
這件事就很重要 | |
1838 | |
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,000 | |
因為如果它的忠誠度 | |
1839 | |
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,000 | |
它的Loyalty不是對你 | |
1840 | |
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,000 | |
而是對它的開發商 | |
1841 | |
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,000 | |
或者更糟一點對廣告商 | |
1842 | |
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:24,000 | |
那這樣子等於就是 | |
1843 | |
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,000 | |
你把你的情緒的操控權 | |
1844 | |
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:28,000 | |
交給了廣告商 | |
1845 | |
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:32,000 | |
以前只是賣了你的文字 圖片 影片 | |
1846 | |
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:35,000 | |
接下來你可能賣了你的情緒跟思想 | |
1847 | |
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:36,000 | |
就等於是說 | |
1848 | |
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,000 | |
只要有投最多錢的人 | |
1849 | |
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,000 | |
就可以讓你對他們要的那件事上癮 | |
1850 | |
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,000 | |
那這個就不得了了 | |
1851 | |
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,000 | |
所以就是說要維持 | |
1852 | |
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:45,000 | |
每個人可以自己安排 | |
1853 | |
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,000 | |
自己的Reward Model | |
1854 | |
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,000 | |
自己的AI分身 | |
1855 | |
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,000 | |
那就必須要在靠近終端的地方來運算 | |
1856 | |
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:52,000 | |
所以這個其實也是 | |
1857 | |
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:54,000 | |
為什麼說元宇宙 | |
1858 | |
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:55,000 | |
當初Metaverse這個概念 | |
1859 | |
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:56,000 | |
他就會很擔心說 | |
1860 | |
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,000 | |
那是不是Meta這家公司 | |
1861 | |
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,000 | |
就掌握我們所有的情緒啊 慾望啊之類 | |
1862 | |
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:02,000 | |
所以那時候說 | |
1863 | |
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:03,000 | |
沒有 事實上是 | |
1864 | |
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,000 | |
類似這種Personal Computing | |
1865 | |
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,000 | |
然後又要彼此互通 | |
1866 | |
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:08,000 | |
就是共同在場很好 | |
1867 | |
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:09,000 | |
但是要喜馬互通 | |
1868 | |
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:12,000 | |
這個就是所謂多元宇宙 | |
1869 | |
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,000 | |
對啦 所以大家歡迎關注 | |
1870 | |
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,000 | |
多元宇宙這個關鍵詞 | |
1871 | |
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:20,000 | |
我也這個小小的改了兩個錯字 | |
1872 | |
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,000 | |
我非常非常支持 | |
1873 | |
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:24,000 | |
因為多元宇宙的這個概念 | |
1874 | |
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,000 | |
其實就很多元了 | |
1875 | |
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:29,000 | |
所以雖然好像是唐鳳部長 | |
1876 | |
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,000 | |
跟這個Vitalik | |
1877 | |
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:34,000 | |
跟一位美國的學者Glenn Weill提出 | |
1878 | |
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,000 | |
但是我自己的辦公室的網站的標題 | |
1879 | |
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,000 | |
也是Plurality | |
1880 | |
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:40,000 | |
就是多元宇宙 | |
1881 | |
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,000 | |
所以我想多元宇宙的概念 | |
1882 | |
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:44,000 | |
本來就是多元 | |
1883 | |
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,000 | |
大家還在講說是什麼顏色 | |
1884 | |
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:47,000 | |
這就很奇怪了 | |
1885 | |
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,000 | |
所以我想我們今天這樣交流 | |
1886 | |
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:50,000 | |
只是一個開始 | |
1887 | |
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,000 | |
希望未來能夠跟部長 | |
1888 | |
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:54,000 | |
有更多更多的溝通 | |
1889 | |
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:58,000 | |
我們一起在這個公僕工作的地方 | |
1890 | |
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,000 | |
大膽的擁抱先進的法案 | |
1891 | |
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:02,000 | |
先進的思維 | |
1892 | |
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:05,000 | |
我們一起喊過大膽擁抱電子千張 | |
1893 | |
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,000 | |
我也希望我們一起 | |
1894 | |
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:09,000 | |
未來大膽擁抱AI的一些 | |
1895 | |
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:11,000 | |
相關的良善的 | |
1896 | |
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:15,000 | |
而且有彈性的幫助產業發展的一些框架 | |
1897 | |
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,000 | |
今天真的很感謝 | |
1898 | |
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,000 | |
唐鳳部長來到我們節目 | |
1899 | |
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:21,000 | |
也感謝大家收聽今天的寶博朋友說 | |
1900 | |
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,000 | |
我是葛如鈞寶博士 | |
1901 | |
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:24,000 | |
如果你喜歡我們的節目 | |
1902 | |
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,000 | |
歡迎點選訂閱 | |
1903 | |
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:27,000 | |
下一集就會自動送上給你喔 | |
1904 | |
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:28,000 | |
不論你是在Apple Podcast | |
1905 | |
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,000 | |
Spotify上YouTube | |
1906 | |
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,000 | |
或者其他平台聽到我們的節目 | |
1907 | |
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,000 | |
歡迎給我們五星評價 | |
1908 | |
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:34,000 | |
按喜歡留言 | |
1909 | |
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,000 | |
或者按下小鈴鐺追蹤訂閱 | |
1910 | |
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:37,000 | |
我們下次空中見囉 | |
1911 | |
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:38,000 | |
拜拜 | |
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