gistfile1.txt

Dustin Lacewell

selpa'i AKA Lorenzo Von Matterhorn has just been nominated in the #lojban channel
as standing BDFL with a current approval of 8/8 votes thus far. If this is an
important matter to you, which I'm sure it is, please join us in the IRC channel
to convey your approval or disapproval with this motion. Thanks!

EDIT:

The current total is 21 to 1 in support for selpahi as new acting warden for the
language. Below is the list including words from rlpowell:

https://gist.github.com/dustinlacewell/056ee248abec6e32b07c

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    J Camaron Rogers
    I don'[t know what a BDFL is, so...

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Benevolent Dictator For Life. A both practical and
    sentimental role to give lojban a voice and also a pragmatic authority for
    establishing changes to the language. The position that Robin Lee Powell
    currently holds in sentiment only.

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Please come to IRC if you have any additional questions or
    concerns or flagrant happiness.

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    J Camaron Rogers 
    I don't really do IRC, but you can let them know that {la
    kronaz} casts a vote in the affirmative.

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Thank you, that currently makes 10 active jbopre in favor.

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Please if you are reading this and you have not responded on
    IRC or here please voice your opinion either way. Silence will be a burden in
    all respects. Thanks.

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    Keresth D'Araciel 
    Is there a particular time-frame and who's arbitrating?

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    Philip Yu 
    This is a joke, right? I honestly don't feel comfortable about
    *anyone* officially having complete 100% control of the project.

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    Alex Burka 
    It's not a joke. Of course nobody is ever going to have 100%
    control. But it is useful to have a leader.

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    Djunias Cmaluprenu 
    Agreed. Selpa'i for jboturni!

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    Sean Inman 
    Maybe now I can come back to IRC. I fully support selpa'i on this.

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    To reiterate what Alex said, we're not trying to put full
    control of the language into selpahi's hands. Rather selpahi would represent
    an active figurehead and mechanism through which proposals for the language
    can make their way to some sort of final-word and integration into the
    language. Forgive me for using a software development analogy, but selpahi
    would essentially be the repository maintainer with the ability to merge pull
    requests.

    Without anyone at the top with the ability to say, "OK after the discussions
    that have taken place surrounding Such And Such being so positive, we'll
    formally adopt it." it doesn't matter how ingenious your connective reform
    is, or just how many people utilize an 'unofficial' place structure
    definition - there's just no mechanism for change.

    With Djunias and Sean I believe that makes 16 active jbopre For the
    'motion'. Philip Yu can you make more explicit your disapproval of the motion
    by saying something like 'nay' or similiar? (just so I'm not accused of
    "interpreting" your reply, later

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    Philip Yu 
    I cannot say for certain, as at this time I do not believe I know
    selpa'i well enough, nor am I at all experienced in this language yet to feel
    compelled to participate in this action any more than merely spectate. I
    cannot say I know enough to make an informed opinion or decision.

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    Alex Richmond 
    Have there been any dissenting opinions? Not reservations, but
    actual "no" votes?

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    As we just learned on IRC Gleki is the first nay.

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    Curtis W. Fraŋks 
    At this time, nay.  It is nothing against the candidate, I
    would just like a formal written set of provisions explictly specifying the
    role and purpose, powers and restrictions, checks and balances, protocols for
    various occasions, etc. first. Also, I think that I would prefer some sort of
    oligarchic council the members of which are democratically elected for some
    finite specified term during good behaviour and service. Lojban is presently
    small enough to work by purely direct democratic means, by the way; we would
    just need to have some rules.  Do we have quorum of (and preferably the
    sanction of certain) members of the community in order to do so? This vote
    seemed to arise unexpectedly and abruptly. I would have liked more notice and
    other rules specified for it too. It just seems to be in bad faith to
    me. But, perhaps, I am just a Muggle.

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    Alex Richmond 
    I suggested this in the IRC and I'll post it here:

    The best way to do the voting procedures would be entirely in Lojban. The
    number of new members that come and go through the Lojban groups (here on
    Facebook, the Google groups, IRC, and whatever else there may be) shouldn't
    be the deciding votes. Anyone who is able to read Lojban beyond a most basic
    "mi [brivla] ti do" has already put in a decent amount of time into learning
    the language.

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    Philip Yu 
    I agree with Alex, considering how I am one of "them".

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    Alex Richmond 
    Can we set up a roll call system so that we know exactly how
    many active people there are in the Lojban community at the moment?

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    Alex Richmond 
    Don't worry Phillip, I still consider myself one of "them" too

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Curtis W. Fraŋks I totally agree that the process for
    proposals and their adoption be something we think through. There is a
    problem with your general response I think, and that's that for the last 10
    years no such oligarchical council of formalized and balanced power of
    integration has ever formed. What you describe is an enormous amount of work
    and has never been achieved. What has been achieved is lots of dialog and
    usage and creativity with regards to lojban itself. Sometimes in a focused
    manner like selpahi has demonstrated so well, and often in a shared form. The
    problem is that even despite an already democratized and shared process there
    is no way to proliferate and *prescribe* extensions, revisions, or whatever
    mutations to the language that is engineered.

    All this would do is give *someone* who is demonstrably dedicated and
    passionate about lojban to an extent that no one else actually demonstrates
    the final say on integration. That's completely different than revisions can
    only come from selpahi. I hope you can make the distinction for yourself and
    realize that nothing about this removes the existing vectors for creativity
    in the language. It simply facilitates a practical result for that effort.

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    By the way, I have updated the count at the original post of
    this thread including comments from Robin and others.

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    Gleki Arxokuna 
    Here is what needs to be done for Lojban to make it workable:
    http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=La_Bangu:_The_Journey

    This plan is for La Bangu dialect but for Standard Lojban (which is mostly the same as La Bangu) the plan would be very similar.
    La Bangu: The Journey - le uitki
    mw.lojban.org
    Somewhat an superfluous to 1. However, most people usually prefer to change from one textbook to another. That's why we provide this alternative.

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    Dank Menkei 
    mi tugni la aleks e la kurtis .i ta'o mi zanru tu'a la selpa'i .i
    ku'i mi na zanru tu'a so'o lo sidbo be lo cnino gimste .i ta'onai mi jinvi lo
    du'u xamgu fa lo nu denpa .i aicu'i

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    Gleki Arxokuna 
    mi na pante tu'a lo nu stidi i e'a stidi i ku'i na nibli lo
    du'u so'e da zanru

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    mi jungau jenai jdice lo ni zanru

    I think this can be a lot less tumultuous than it has to be. What this will
    do is solve a very specific problem. That problem is when someone proposes
    some change, and the change gets spread around, and you have these countless
    discussions about this change and how it is good and we reformalize it over
    and over and just keep talking about it as some thing, that is never really
    realized because none of us has the authority to stand up and say "oh for
    crying out loud already, dudes from here on, everyone just USE it and not
    feel guilty that you're learning some non-standard lojban. Hence forth it IS
    standard lojban!"

    That guy is going to be selphai, because selpahi spends most of his waking
    hours thinking and breathing lojban. Not only has he been emitting
    high-quality literary translations, maintaining an active lojban blog,
    teaching formal lojban lessons, he also manages to come up with really really
    thought-out refinements in both grammar and vocabulary. I want to type, "His
    command of the language is top-tier" but its not even that. His command of
    the nuance of the language, its qualities and its faults and the way he can
    see parellels from one part of the language to the other.

    This is exactly the kind of guy that *should* be settling our disputes at the
    end of the day. The disputes and agreements that we already have will have a
    venue to find their way to actually have an effect on the thing we're so
    passionate to have disputes and agreements on in the first place.

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    Alex Richmond 
    I read that as "wanking hours". Made for an even more
    compelling argument. I think I need some sleep lol

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    Philip Yu 
    Well, my parents vote for CEOs of companies they own a handful of
    stocks from without knowing jack about them, so, considering the voices above
    and assuming they are all true, should I still have the ability to decide on
    yes-or-no for selpa'i, I would choose yes.

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Updating the count

    Btw, just to touch on the whole "Lets create government-level bureaucratic
    democracy to manage lojban with speakers who are only versed in the language"
    thing. I think this is slightly moot since only speakers very versed in the
    language are coming up with and discussing proposals anyway. Besides you
    think you're good at the language, the dude can effing _rap_ in lojban!

    haha, can you say jbojevysofkemsuzgugje'ake'eborkemfaipaltrusi'oke'ekemgubyseltru on beat like the Beloved?

    /zo'o

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    Alex Richmond 
    I've listened to both of his songs several times, and I
    actually proposed that he start a crowdfund for an EP lol

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    Philip Yu 
    Shouldn't there be a deadline to when voting ends?

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Who would enforce the deadline. We're polling as many people
    as we can grab the attention of and if no mass of amount of people strongly
    disagree then we can start implementing stuff. Its that easy. I can say that
    we highly highly intend to 'open source' lojban far more than it is right
    now. Not just tools surrounding lojban but lojban itself. We want to make the
    discussions around proposals and all of that much more visible. The software
    project management was real analogy. We want the specification of the
    language and its lexicon to be version controlled so that integration is an
    explicit process and its history can be enjoyed by everyone. Of course these
    are just ideas and who knows if it will work but its been a pretty favorable
    idea so far.

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    Curtis W. Fraŋks Dustin Lacewell, I am aware of the histouric difficulties
    and of the distinction. I just figured that, if this movement were happening,
    that might mean that effort could more generally be put into it.

    If there are rules involved or if the office in question is officially named
    and described, I might reconsider. Heck, I am reconsidering as it is. And if
    there were to be some small council, I probably would happily vote for
    him. But, as it is, this ballot just does not sit well with me (again, not
    for personal reasons).

    What about quorum?

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    Curtis W. Fraŋks But if, as you say, there is no big push for governing in a
    more active manner by bureaucracy, then with rules, I would like to sleep on
    it. Keep my vote as it was for now, but I may ask tomorrow to change it.

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    Curtis W. Fraŋks (It does seem to me that there are a few Lojbanists out
    there who would be happy to participate or take up some degree of duty with
    regard to community decision-making, not just selpa'i. When is the last time
    that we have asked around and had a concerted effort to provide such
    organization?

    If his proposed office were to simply to organize how we would go about
    organizing such a system, the proposal of which could include expanded powers
    for his office but also which would be subjected to community discussion and
    vote, I would be very happy.)

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    Alex Richmond 
    That was my idea behind a roll call. We find out who wants to
    actively participate in the discussions and vote on them, and we make the
    quorum 2/3 of the group, or something of that nature. That number could
    fluctuate from month to month, but probably not by much

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    The thing is, if your good faith in your fellow lojbanist was
    actualized, it would be manifest by those people being already driven to
    participate in such a direct democracy. Even yourselves this applies to. The
    reality is that you are still free to directly involve yourself in the
    creation and maintaince of lojban - but with the result of this motion the
    most qualified among us will truly have the final say.

    By the way Broca of the BPFK has given his provisional approval of selpahi as
    acting warden. Updating count.

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    Ali Sajid Imami 
    I have known selpahi for a while. he is extremely dedicated
    and obviously the correct choice. I vote yea

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    Curtis W. Fraŋks At the end of the day, Lojban belongs to everyone. So, if
    the term limit were exceeded, we need only ignore the decisions made
    thereäfter. We would merely descend into anarchy similar to that of the
    present, which is workable (even if annoying), therefore moderately
    acceptable. "Consent of the governed" and all that jazz.

    I agree that we need an operating mechanism by which to make proposed changes
    official. I am not comfortable with this proposed solution on principle (not
    because of choice of candidate: I recognize that he is a wonderful member of
    the community, contributor to Lojban, and indeed probably worthy of the
    proposed office).

    Again, just let me think on it a bit more. I recognize his virtues and our need.

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    Curtis W. Fraŋks I also have great faith in him and our community. No-one is
    out to purposefully ruin Lojban.

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    Alex Richmond 
    I might add that when I read selpahi's idea for reforming the
    Lojban connectives, I was hoping that it might actually happen someday.

    http://selpahi.weebly.com/.../how-to-substantially...
    How to substantially simplify the Lojban connective system — My connective system
    selpahi.weebly.com

    "How does one say "and" in Lojban?" " Well... it depends, you know. For sumti, i... See More

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    Curtis W. Fraŋks 
    All that having been said, I would gladly take the system
    and candidate of the original post out for a semi-official test drive (so to
    speak) for some amount of time, as determined by some formal set of
    ordinances; at the end we can judge the job based not on the proposed changes
    to the grammar (which presumably will have been discussed in detail and
    already divided the community into camps), but based on the efficiency of the
    system, how well the snags were worked out, and how well the decisions were
    handled/given the stamp of approval by the candidate in accord with the
    community consensus.

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    Joanna Kurki 
    For me it's too early to vote.. I'm definitely too noob to even
    know people, not I have ever used lojban-irc.

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    Ali Sajid Imami 
    Guys, is this going to descend into a civil war now? because
    that would be highly undesirable. As one of the working Board members of LLG
    it would pain me highly if schisms happened and things got ugly. >.>

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    Alex Burka 
    So far it doesn't look like a civil war to me.

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    J Camaron Rogers 
    I'll vote for whomever promises to move future votes to
    something a little less antiquated than IRC and mailing lists... just sayin

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    Lorenzo Von Matterhorn 
    To those who are sceptical of the idea of having a
    BDFL in the first place: We have had one for the last 10 years. I think that
    should be made clear.

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    J Camaron Rogers 
    Perhaps the title should be changed to avoid the stigma that
    "dictator" carries, despite its mildly humorous use.

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    Lorenzo Von Matterhorn 
    How about Chief, or The Dude zo'o.

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    Gleki Arxokuna 
    .onai zo'o la ralju badna

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    Gunnar Yngman 
    I'll second this motion.

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    Riley Martinez-Lynch 
    Lojban needs engaged leadership and few people have the
    combination of acumen, accomplishment and enthusiasm that selpa'i brings to
    the table. That said, any earnest proposal to reform lojban's governance
    should not limit the discussion to those who use Facebook and IRC, and should
    take a clear stand with regard to the mechanisms of governance currently in
    place -- however dysfunctional they may be.

    I'd also like to see a discussion of the alternatives to investing
    categorical authority in a single individual. An autocrat is a single point
    of failure, and even the wisest monarchs have failed to solve the problem of
    succession.

    And the discussion should include the responsibilities that accompany any
    award of authority: "With great power comes great responsibility." For all of
    the authority invested in BPFK, its recommendations were never formally
    implemented. Accountability appears to have been more of an issue than
    authority. If that is true, "lifetime" appointments seem especially
    ill-advised.

    I applaud the initiative to rescue lojban from its derelict state, and to
    harness the expertise and energy of selpa'i to this end. I hope my comments
    here are understood as an opinion of what might be done to maximize the
    chances that this effort will succeed in preserving and reinvigorating this
    remarkable language.

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    James Constable 
    mi sanji je zanru loi selgu'a .i'esai.i'o be la selpa'i
    .iku'i mi ji'a jinvi lodu'u lo se faurtei be lonu mi jikca lo lojbo cecmu cu
    norbanzu loka mi kakne loka racli jdice .i.a'odai loli'i jdice pruce .e lo
    bamo'u teryru'e roda pluka

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Yeah, you and Curtis are not wrong in any idealistic sense in
    the way you couch your approval with senses of formalized procedures and
    hearings and so on. The plain white-paste reality is that there is only a
    single person who has actually stood up to bear this responsibility. The "For
    Life" part of BDFL is just sentimental that the authority isn't
    whimsical. That to be of practical value, he _really does_ have the power of
    dispute resolution and point-event integration of changes.

    I think a large aspect of this decision is to give us a mechanism through
    which we can take our ideas of more formalized discussion and open tracking
    of lojban the language as data a voice. The worry that selpahi is going to
    somehow rule with an Iron fist is irrational. The process by which lojban
    changes is already natural and collaborative. It simply has no method by
    which those changes can find their way into those sacred halls of official
    purview. We don't need to go and draft volumes of procedure that will never
    be followed anyway. Lojban's community is all ready cooperative in their
    creativity. Simply now, all of that effort wont be wasted.

    Again I just want to reiterate, that the procedures for change integration
    are going to become FAR more explicit. But those changes in procedure are far
    more facilitated by this decision/vote than a prerequisite for it.

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    Dustin Lacewell 
    Riley Martinez-Lynch can I put you down in the yea or nay
    columns?

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    Alex Burka 
    doi la'oi .James Constable. .i pe'i lo do crelai befi tu'a lo
    jbobau cu ja'a banzu lo nu do se cmicu'akrali vau vau pei

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