- Event Title: The Aesthetics of Rebellion: Masaki Kobayashi Film Festival — Celebrating 100 Years Since His Birth (Japanese: 生誕100年 小林正樹映画祭 反骨の美学)
- Venue: Eurospace (Euro Live) — Shibuya, Tokyo
- Event Date: October 8, 2016 (Note: The video was uploaded to YouTube on January 12, 2017, recording the stage talk from October 8, 2016)
- Video Title: Harakiri (Seppuku) - Tatsuya Nakadai Interview
- Original Japanese Title: 切腹・仲代達矢インタビュー
- Channel Name: Akihito Koriyama
- Date of Event / Recording: October 8, 2016 (Stage talk following the 13:30 screening of Harakiri)
- YouTube Upload Date: January 12, 2017
- Video Duration: 22 minutes 39 seconds
- Source URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhyi_fZdlYo
- Post-Screening Talk Show: On October 8, 2016, a special talk show took place immediately following the screening of Harakiri (Seppuku, 1962). Actor Tatsuya Nakadai appeared as the guest of honor.
- Audience Experience: Prior to stepping onto the stage for this interview, Nakadai actually sat in the theater and re-watched Harakiri together with the audience, offering his fresh impressions right after viewing the film.
Tatsuya Nakadai: When I watched it, I was 29 years old, playing a role with a grandchild... If you watch it as it is, you might feel a bit out of place. But right after the opening, director Kobayashi's framing and pacing were already fantastic. The camera work by Miyajima was also dark and incredible. Aside from that, as an actor, I had wonderful co-stars.
I couldn't leave out Rentaro Mikuni-san. Before this movie, there was a film called Omae (You), and Rentaro Mikuni-san played a role who saved me.
Interviewer: Yes, that's right. Rentaro Mikuni-san was actually more than 10 years older than you, wasn't he?
Tatsuya Nakadai: Yes, that's right. When I watched it, he was truly wonderful... both of them were fantastic. Actors around 50 years old have their own strong personal styles. Because of that, we had quite a clash over our acting methods.
Interviewer: If you actually watch the film, you can really see it. When Nakadai-san and Mikuni-san played those dark/evil roles, Mikuni-san was a Christian in real life, but he got so deeply into that role—playing a womanizing, cunning, classic villain. As Nakadai-san mentioned earlier, during filming, you two had heated debates or arguments over each other's performance styles, didn't you?
Tatsuya Nakadai: Yes. Since I was the junior actor, I should have been more reserved and just listened to what Mikuni-san said. But being young and reckless, I pushed back. At one point, I was taught about the sense of distance between actors. Coming from a stage background—and I still do stage acting—I was taught that actors coming from modern theater (Shingeki) must value the sense of distance on stage. That's fine if it's theater, but on a film set, when two actors are at a distance, if it were stage acting, I would project my voice for a distance of 10 or 30 meters. But film isn't like that. He would tell me, "Why are you speaking in such a loud voice when we're standing this close in a film?" Well, logically, he was right. But as a stubborn young actor, I felt differently.
And at another time, Mikuni-san said to me: "I interpreted and crafted my performance this way because I anticipated you would act like that." So I asked, "Is that so? Then how should I do it?" He replied, "I imagined you coming at me like this, so I acted like this." But on my end, being young and stubborn, I said, "I crafted my performance like this because I thought you were going to come at me like that! But you did that instead!" Then Mikuni-san went, "Oh... well, that wasn't a very good calculation on my part, was it?"
Director Kobayashi and the entire staff were probably thinking, "Oh boy, here they go again..." [laughs]. So we had arguments like that day after day. The next morning, there was a heavy, awkward atmosphere between us. But experiencing all of that... back then, actors had strong individuality. Of course, there was the director's vision too, but we created the film while clashing with each other. In that sense, I think it was a great era.
Interviewer: That tension... I've interviewed various people who worked with Mikuni-san, and when he felt his acting partner was formidable and worth going all-in against, he always brought out that kind of intense energy. You could really feel that tension radiating from the screen—that feeling of two powerhouses clashing head-on. It was magnificent.
There's another point I wanted to ask about. For instance, the duel scene with Tetsuro Tamba-san. That was an incredible scene as well. Real swords (shinken) were used in parts of it, right?
Tatsuya Nakadai: Yes, especially during the scene where the five of them are surrounded... Real steel swords were used. Why did Director Kobayashi do that? Usually, when we do sword fights (chambara), we use light bamboo or prop swords so we can move fast and lightly, which looks thrilling to the audience. But Director Kobayashi wanted to express the true weight and dangerous presence of a real sword.
Although we used real swords for safety in certain shots, when the finished film came out, Tamba-san's presence and weight were undeniable. You couldn't just brush it off. His movement was a bit slow, but because of that, there was a sense of realism and speed. That alone carried the scene. Even without using real swords, he was plenty intimidating!
Interviewer: It was truly amazing. Another thing—and I'm sure everyone watching this thinks the same—this film hasn't aged at all. It addresses the hypocrisy and evil within rigid systems that prioritize surface appearances (tatemae), and Nakadai-san's character rebels against that. That theme runs consistently through Director Kobayashi's works, like The Human Condition (Ningen no Joken).
Tatsuya Nakadai: Indeed. The theme of fighting against an evil system or establishment... In The Human Condition, a single man named Kaji resists the war effort, but ultimately becomes a victim/perpetrator and dies alone in the snow. Director Kobayashi pursued that kind of theme right from the beginning. He was a disciple of Keisuke Kinoshita, so in that sense, the underlying philosophy of human life, death, and existence in his work resonates universally with audiences around the world. He learned under Kurosawa and Kobayashi...
Interviewer: Nakadai-san, you've appeared in about 160 films throughout your career. Among all of them, you yourself have mentioned that if you had to pick just one definitive movie...
Tatsuya Nakadai: Yes, even though I was pushed hard and criticized by Director Kobayashi, this is a film I absolutely love. Cinema is a composite art (sogo geijutsu). First, there's the original story by Yasuhiko Takiguchi. Without a great script and original work, an actor can't do anything. The source material was incredible, the script by Shinobu Hashimoto was brilliant, and of course Director Kobayashi and cinematographer Yoshio Miyajima were amazing. Environmentally and artistically, everything came together perfectly. So if I had to pick just one single film from my career, I would choose this one (Seppuku / Harakiri).
Also, this film is a kind of narrative drama (katari-gei / storytelling art). Of course, it has visual cinematic art, but it relies heavily on oral storytelling. Why was I able to perform that? Before the war, Japanese entertainment was mostly state-sponsored propaganda, and during the war, we didn't have much. Among the 70 million citizens, radio was huge—things like Kodan storytelling, Manzai, and audio performances where you listen to a narrator. I grew up listening to radio storytelling. After the war, American and European films came in, but that foundation of "storytelling through voice" stayed with me. Holding onto the radio as a kid listening to stories actually helped me as an actor later on.
Interviewer: Hearing you say that makes me realize it anew. This film actually contains a huge amount of spoken dialogue and narration.
Tatsuya Nakadai: Yes, exactly.
Interviewer: At first, Shima Iwashita-san's character narrates, then Nakadai-san's character narrates and explains things at length. Then, within the story, deep dialogue continues. Yet, even with so much monologue and narration, when you watch it today, it doesn't feel awkward at all—you get pulled right into it. That seamless transition from narration to drama comes from that art of storytelling (katari-gei), doesn't it?
Tatsuya Nakadai: Yes. Growing up in that era influenced me a lot. The art of spoken words (moyu-jitsu) was deeply ingrained in us.
Nowadays, I run a small acting group called Mumeijuku, where I train young actors. Kids born today have grown up watching TV since birth, so they tend to only use their natural speaking voices. They struggle with how to modulate their pitch and tone to inhabit a character's voice. In our day, theater actors had to project their voices to reach the back row of a large theater without microphones. Today, microphones pick up even tiny whispers. But voice projection training is essential, so at Mumeijuku, we strictly train our actors to project their voices.
Interviewer: Looking at it as a complete work of art, this film is truly fascinating. At the beginning of the event today, Nakadai-san mentioned Director Kobayashi as his mentor. Director Kobayashi meant so much to you. Could you share a bit about your very first encounter with Director Kobayashi back then?
Tatsuya Nakadai: I spent three years at the Haiyuza Actors' Theater training school. During those three years, I took auditions all the time—maybe around four times a year. But whenever I auditioned for Shochiku or Toho, I kept failing. I failed nine auditions in a row! I knew why, though: my face and build didn't fit the typical movie star look of that time. I thought, "Well, I guess movies aren't for me. I'll dedicate myself entirely to stage acting."
The very first film role I got was in a film directed by Masahiro Shinoda, where I played a small part. But the first proper role given to me by Director Kobayashi was Kuroi Kawa (Black River), playing a ruthless gangster named Jo. Before that, during The Thick-Walled Room (Kabe Atsuki Heya), I auditioned for a role called Izumi and failed. But Director Kobayashi remembered me from that audition.
When it came to Black River, I played that gangster. Right after that was The Human Condition (Ningen no Joken). That book by Junpei Gomikawa was a massive bestseller. The production company Ninjin Club bought the film rights from Shochiku. There was huge media coverage about who would play the main character, Kaji. Then Director Kobayashi called me in and said, "I want you to play Kaji." I was stunned. Shochiku had suggested many famous lead actors, but in the end, Director Kobayashi saw a screen test of my eyes and decided based on that alone.
After two months of rehearsals, filming took nearly four years. It was an intense experience.
Interviewer: The Human Condition will be screened again during this retrospective, and there are days where you can watch it all in one go. I rewatched it earlier this year, and the ending is just... well, I shouldn't spoil the ending, but please go see it!
In Director Kobayashi's films—like Inne or Hira no Shinogou—Nakadai-san played very diverse roles. In Sanjuro or Samurai Rebellion (Joi-uchi), you co-starred with Toshiro Mifune-san. Audiences can see so many different sides of your acting.
Tatsuya Nakadai: Filming The Human Condition was tough. Part 1 and 2 took six months. During the break before Parts 3 and 4 for location scouting, Director Kurosawa called me to film Yojimbo! So while taking a break from The Human Condition, I shot Yojimbo, then went back to shoot Parts 5 and 6 of The Human Condition. My acting style had to completely shift between those projects. Kaji in The Human Condition was an earnest idealist, while Unosuke in Yojimbo was a sinister, flamboyant villain. Switching back and forth was crazy, but it was an incredible experience.
Interviewer: That contrast is amazing. You can see both sides of your incredible range. You played directors' visions so brilliantly.
Lastly, you worked with many legendary directors, including Director Kurosawa and Director Kobayashi. What was it about Director Kobayashi that you personally loved or respected the most?
Tatsuya Nakadai: People often ask me, "What's the difference between Akira Kurosawa and Masaki Kobayashi?" Kurosawa was intense, like a storm—pure drama and explosive energy. Kobayashi, on the other hand, was quiet and calm.
In the old days, directors took their time. They were fine taking just one shot a day, spending two hours setting up a single scene. Kurosawa would get frustrated if things didn't go right, while Kobayashi would calmly say, "Let's do it one more time."
There was a project Director Kobayashi and I wanted to do together about 20 years ago. We tried hard to get it made, but unfortunately, it fell through. I'm sure Director Kobayashi would be thrilled to see his films celebrated like this today, 100 years after his birth.
Interviewer: Indeed. Nakadai-san, you are still actively performing on stage and screen today. We look forward to seeing your future works as well.
Tatsuya Nakadai: I'm turning 84 soon, so I can't make grand promises [laughs]. But next year, I have two projects lined up—one stage play and one film. On stage, I'm doing Bertolt Brecht's Mother Courage and Her Children. It's a demanding play, and I think I'll make that my final curtain call. But until then, I'll give it everything I've got. Thank you very much!