mev-boost community call #0 notes

08:59:20 From stokes to Everyone:
	Agenda here: https://collective.flashbots.net/t/toward-an-open-research-and-development-process-for-mev-boost/464/19?u=ralexstokes
09:02:23 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	Gm everyone
09:02:33 From terence to Everyone:
	Gm
09:02:38 From oisinkyne to Everyone:
	gm
09:02:44 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	can you repost?
09:02:45 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	Can u resend agenda
09:02:48 From stokes to Everyone:
	https://collective.flashbots.net/t/toward-an-open-research-and-development-process-for-mev-boost/464/19
09:03:34 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	"i'm just a guy" 😀
09:04:03 From stokes to Everyone:
	https://github.com/ethereum/builder-specs/releases/tag/v0.3.0
09:04:53 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	https://github.com/flashbots/relay-specs
09:05:09 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	https://github.com/flashbots/relay-specs/pull/10
09:05:49 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	https://github.com/flashbots/relay-specs/pull/10/files#diff-3ec4666c542b19c13b7fae7a4bbb6f3af37a53094152fbc172c744b269740af7
09:06:30 From stokes to Everyone:
	https://github.com/ethereum/builder-specs/pull/61
09:07:02 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Will read PR, but question: is this updated wrt "free the blobs"?
09:08:14 From terence to Everyone:
	It’s also coupled with https://github.com/ethereum/beacon-APIs/pull/302
09:09:54 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	Docs of our changes to the stack: https://flashbots.notion.site/MEV-Boost-Capella-Upgrades-00cea01704794f6eb4f792c55b69c441
09:10:41 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	https://github.com/ethereum/beacon-APIs/issues/244#issuecomment-1439293791
09:10:46 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	but https://github.com/ethereum/beacon-APIs/issues/301 looks like it's trying to standardize that
09:11:43 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	https://boost-relay-zhejiang.flashbots.net/
09:14:39 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	where are other relays at?
09:15:33 From Max to Everyone:
	Aestus will definitely be ready for goerli
09:15:45 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Sepolia is 28th
09:17:10 From shana to Everyone:
	https://collective.flashbots.net/t/toward-an-open-research-and-development-process-for-mev-boost/464/19?u=ralexstokes
09:18:43 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	https://notes.ethereum.org/@marioevz/hive-builder-api-results-01
09:20:37 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	mempool builder in rust? can you expand what this is?
09:20:44 From stokes to Everyone:
	https://github.com/ralexstokes/mev-rs
09:21:11 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Yeah, testing without dependence on upstream relays which might or might not be ready yet for upcoming hardforks or devnets/shadowforks is one of the larger issues that's not going to otherwise fade
09:21:21 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	v cool
09:22:39 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	+1 to what terence is saying
09:24:18 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	https://github.com/flashbots/builder
09:25:33 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	spinning up infra for a new network is a bunch of work!
09:27:10 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	q for blocknative: how far along is your relay towards capella compatibility?
09:27:17 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	(dreamboat)
09:27:40 From Max to Everyone:
	I’d echo Justin’s comment from the Aestus perspective - not enough bandwidth to this at present.
09:28:17 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Will there be a way to find the set of relay operators supporting Sepolia around fork?
09:29:49 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Sepolia is gatekeeped you cant run relay
09:30:05 From iPhone to Everyone:
	we have asked to run relay for sepolia and was told no thank you
09:30:05 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	CLs run validators
09:30:13 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Sam Bacha
09:30:16 From iPhone to Everyone:
	srry
09:30:19 From iPhone to Everyone:
	:))))
09:30:20 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	you can run relays, just not proposers
09:30:34 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Validators still have to connect
09:31:19 From iPhone to Everyone:
	We have new relay codebase
09:31:28 From iPhone to Everyone:
	So would like to connect
09:31:47 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	do you have a link? is it open source?
09:31:48 From iPhone to Everyone:
	thx
09:32:38 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Ablative Relay source code not yet public but i can add you to github repo if you pinky promise not to shame us
09:33:55 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	i'm good to wait until it's public
09:34:16 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	How do we we feel about  the current lack of hard economic incentives for operating a Relay? As we have discussed, Relays require real costs (people + infra + time) as well as expectations of high availability and making validators whole after missed slots. On a long enough time horizon, does this become a legit centralization risk? Or is in-protocol PBS the answer here?
09:34:38 From iPhone to Everyone:
	it is known that relay will be economically loosing
09:35:10 From iPhone to Everyone:
	vitalik even stated as such in the vienna flashbots salon talk
09:35:22 From iPhone to Everyone:
	around 20 mins in if your wondering
09:36:21 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	I guess my question is: are we all comfortable with this? Does not seem sustainable / creates incentives for ‘undesirable’ behaviors
09:36:31 From mikeneuder.eth to Everyone:
	https://github.com/flashbots/mev-boost-relay/pull/285
09:36:34 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Replying to "How do we we feel ab…"
	In protocol PBS is years away
09:36:40 From mikeneuder.eth to Everyone:
	https://github.com/flashbots/mev-boost-relay/pull/285
09:36:43 From Max to Everyone:
	Reacted to "I guess my question ..." with 👍
09:36:49 From mikeneuder.eth to Everyone:
	https://github.com/michaelneuder/opt-relay-docs/blob/main/proposal.md
09:37:09 From stokes to Everyone:
	Lets circle back around to relay sustainability after this part
09:37:20 From Murat Akdeniz to Everyone:
	Reacted to "Lets circle back aro..." with 👍
09:37:31 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	Replying to "How do we we feel ab…"
	Yep. Which happens sooner? Enshrined Relay centralization or enshrined PBS? Feels worthy of exploration.
09:37:38 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	Reacted to "Lets circle back aro…" with 👍
09:40:47 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Only ETH or will Liquid Derivatives be acceptable collateral
09:41:11 From iPhone to Everyone:
	How much excess collateral be required
09:41:32 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Staking pools seem to value other metrics as well, such as just hitting every single proposal.
09:41:38 From iPhone to Everyone:
	we did not payout a refund we paid a ransom
09:42:19 From Stephane to Everyone:
	the payment can be made permissionless
09:44:07 From iPhone to Everyone:
	they dont have incentives that are apparent to you
09:45:21 From Stephane to Everyone:
	who reveals the body in your proposal?
09:46:27 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Add SSZ support
09:47:01 From terence to Everyone:
	Is the payload is invalid, then is the block missed?
09:47:07 From terence to Everyone:
	If the*
09:47:07 From stokes to Everyone:
	yep
09:47:36 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Aside from latency measurements, what's the % gain in profit?
09:47:37 From Stephane to Everyone:
	am very excited for this proposal!
09:48:12 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	i.e. some measurement of risk-adjusted alpha
09:50:48 From Barnabé Monnot to Everyone:
	is there an expectation that this increases builder revenue overall? or just shifts it from next builder to previous builder?
09:51:15 From Stephane to Everyone:
	mostly makes the ultrasound relay more competitive
09:51:34 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Because so far I'm hearing reasons why it's not that large a risk -- which I believe, basically -- but not much about the reward
09:51:35 From Antony Denyer to Everyone:
	Opt in per validator?
09:52:04 From Murat Akdeniz to Everyone:
	Can the relay collect yield on the staked amt to subsidize rep dmg & infra costs?
09:52:10 From Barnabé Monnot to Everyone:
	@stephane, yes I guess I am wondering if it increases the size of the pie rather than re-partitioning it. I could see arguments for either!
09:52:16 From iPhone to Everyone:
	not our new codebase baby
09:52:24 From iPhone to Everyone:
	rofl
09:52:32 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	What’s the argument for increasing the pie?
09:52:37 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	@barnabe
09:53:03 From Barnabé Monnot to Everyone:
	@davide lower latency overall, txs get in quicker, so price of coordination goes down?
09:53:17 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	agree on being careful and deliberate with the Flashbots relay implementation, but let's discuss. fwiw, the code is looking pretty solid
09:53:42 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	Okay yes, higher welfare but not necessarily higher revenues
09:53:42 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	Does this approach effectively cap the bid on the block? As in… from time to time we see ‘juicy blocks’ with giant bids (100’s of ETH). Would each builder need to post that much collateral in order to bid on those? What happens if we encounter a single block worth >1,000 ETH (which at this point seems inevitable).
09:53:48 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	@mike how about adding a data API to expose missed slots?
09:53:56 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	Gain can go 100% to user surplus
09:53:58 From Justin Drake to Everyone:
	Yes, there’s a cap
09:54:00 From Stephane to Everyone:
	@matt yes
09:54:01 From Justin Drake to Everyone:
	e.g. 1 ETH
09:54:19 From Pat Stiles to Everyone:
	Collateral could be custodied similar to a DVT scheme
09:54:56 From oisinkyne to Everyone:
	Happy to chat Pat if you have idea 🙂
09:54:59 From Barnabé Monnot to Everyone:
	@davide why not higher revenue if the overall welfare is higher? it could translate into actionable gains, not just extra welfare from lower time-value discounting
09:55:38 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	Mhm, what is an example of actionable gain?
09:56:12 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	Ok. Does this act as a dis-incentive to adoption because of the builder risk of ‘missing out’ on juicy blocks… or does this act as a centralization risk as only the best capitalized Builders will have the ability to lock up >1,000 ETH? Sort of creating a have’s vs. have not’s for the biggest block opportunities.
09:56:21 From iPhone to Everyone:
	where are you getting that reputation is valued on several orders of magnitude more
09:56:32 From stokes to Everyone:
	LTV of bundle flow
09:56:39 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Doesnt this incentive reputation farming
09:56:53 From iPhone to Everyone:
	since permissionless
09:56:56 From Dustin Brody to Everyone:
	Even more centralizing tendencies?
09:56:59 From stokes to Everyone:
	@matt you fallback to “pessimistic” operation if value is over collateral
09:57:25 From iPhone to Everyone:
	there we go
09:57:44 From iPhone to Everyone:
	This is pay for priority basically
09:57:56 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	Higher collateral == lower latency… correct?
09:58:03 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	At the edges that is
09:58:27 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	Oh. Max collateral limit is helpful here.
09:58:32 From Stephane to Everyone:
	better to make it a market than creating an incentive for builders to run their own relays!
09:58:48 From iPhone to Everyone:
	20% of opportunities represent 80% profits
09:59:22 From iPhone to Everyone:
	why not just use tx hinting with proof submitted to relay
09:59:42 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	But back to Relay incentives: what if a Relay creates an off-chain agreement for a much higher collateralization limit? Seems like it would be 1) valuable for the big builders and 2) hard to detect
10:00:29 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Rationality is self defeating in permission less setting matt
10:01:01 From iPhone to Everyone:
	when next call ?
10:01:10 From iPhone to Everyone:
	scheduled *
10:01:22 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	Monthly?
10:01:35 From Matt Cutler | Blocknative to Everyone:
	+1 on monthly calls
10:01:36 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	thanks for the lively discussion!
10:01:39 From Max to Everyone:
	Broadly speaking I’d summarise Aestus’ view on this by saying we have some concerns with increased operational/legal/financial frictions that OR creates on both sides of the builder-relay dynamic leading to some fairly complex working relationships, and the negative impact that could have on competition. 
	
	On the other hand, we see efficiencies and improved network performance - it will make running Aestus cheaper.
10:01:49 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	v interesting meeting
10:01:53 From Chris Hager to Everyone:
	next meet 2 weeks from now?
10:01:54 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	Thanks Alex!
10:02:20 From iPhone to Everyone:
	march 6
10:02:25 From iPhone to Everyone:
	After eth denver
10:02:33 From Davide Crapis to Everyone:
	Yes!
10:02:33 From iPhone to Everyone:
	no this time is terrible
10:02:41 From iPhone to Everyone:
	thank you alex
10:02:43 From Chris Meisl | Blocknative to Everyone:
	Thank you Alex et al for putting this together
10:02:44 From Ladislaus to Everyone:
	ty
10:02:47 From iPhone to Everyone:
	thanks justin
10:02:53 From iPhone to Everyone:
	Danke
10:02:53 From austonst to Everyone:
	Thanks all
10:03:00 From iPhone to Everyone:
	💯👍