rkitover · September 30, 2022 01:21
diff --git a/irc-log.txt b/irc-log.txt
 07-04 23:51 <Crocodillian> ok, so let me explain a bit
 07-04 23:51 <Crocodillian> if you don't mind 
 07-04 23:51 <blank> Okay.
 07-04 23:53 <Crocodillian> sorry had to pee
 07-04 23:53 <Crocodillian> have you used chroots for anything before?
 07-04 23:53 <Crocodillian> or bsd jails
 07-04 23:54 <blank> Nope.
 07-04 23:55 <Crocodillian> so a chroot is when you open a shell in a directory that becomes the whole linux system in that shell
 07-04 23:55 <blank> Yes, I remember that much.
 07-04 23:56 <Crocodillian> it still runs on the same kernel, but it's kind of analagous to a virtual machine
 07-04 23:56 <Crocodillian> for example, you could be running ubuntu and open a chroot into a fedora system
 07-04 23:57 <Crocodillian> then you could become users in that fedora system, run any apps from it, etc.
 07-04 23:57 <blank> Okay.
 07-04 23:58 <Crocodillian> so containers are kind of like that, and there is a whole infrastructure in the kernel now called OCI (Open Container Iniitiative)
 07-04 23:58 <Crocodillian> this is what podman is an interface
 07-04 23:59 <Crocodillian> podman is a command that works just like the docker command, except it uses OCI
 07-04 23:59 <blank> Okay, so it's a chroot with a standard from the kernel.
 07-05 00:00 <Crocodillian> yes, and many other things use containerization now too, for example flatpak uses ubuntu/etc. runtimes for apps
 07-05 00:01 <Crocodillian> there is a lot more to it than just chroot, it can do virtual networking and such, but the chroot concept is the most important
 07-05 00:01 <Crocodillian> now, why the fuck does anyone want this
 07-05 00:01 <blank> Sure.
 07-05 00:02 <Crocodillian> suppose you are packaging an app for deployment on linux servers or desktops
 07-05 00:02 <Crocodillian> you make a container with ubuntu and all the shit you want
 07-05 00:02 <Crocodillian> including your app
 07-05 00:02 <Crocodillian> and then your users can bring it up in a few minutes instead of spending hours installing obscure packages or whatever the fuck
 07-05 00:03 <Crocodillian> and because it's a container that runs on the same kernel, it's much much lighter weight than a vm, so you can have fucking thousands of these things
 07-05 00:03 <Crocodillian> which is what people do with kubernetes
 07-05 00:04 <Crocodillian> people often try to use alpine instead of ubuntu because it makes for a much smaller and lighter weight container
 07-05 00:05 <Crocodillian> on docker hub there are thousands of packaged containers like, a whole mail system with postfix/imap/etc./etc./etc. that is configured by people who actually understand mail, which is very few people
 07-05 00:06 <Crocodillian> so if you want to run a mail server, it makes much more sense to use one of those
 07-05 00:06 <Crocodillian> or say you want a specific version of php or node or something, instead of spending hours trying to install or compile it in your distro, you just run the container in minutes or seconds
 07-05 00:07 <Crocodillian> makes sense so far?
 07-05 00:10 <blank> Yes.
 07-05 00:10 <Crocodillian> ok, so there are also things like docker compose and kubernetes
 07-05 00:10 <Ashy> KOOBIES
 07-05 00:11 <Crocodillian> what they do is allow you to hook a bunch of containers together in a config using the container virtual networking
 07-05 00:11 <Crocodillian> so like, you have your nginx, your php/node/whatever, your app, your database, your proxy, etc. etc. etc.
 07-05 00:12 <Crocodillian> and you can bring all this shit up much much faster than if you had to do it manually, because it's all ready to go to just hook into your config
 07-05 00:12 <blank> It's starting to sound less useful.
 07-05 00:12 <blank> Web developers already don't know what they're doing.
 07-05 00:12 <Crocodillian> yeah it's pure fucking cancer
 07-05 00:13 <Crocodillian> but with kubernetes they can run literally hundreds of apps on a single machine
 07-05 00:13 <Crocodillian> maybe thousands, I dunno
 07-05 00:13 <Ashy> it's a side effect of nobody learning how to use their distro's package manager and systemd
 07-05 00:14 <blank> I was in a meeting two weeks ago where I found out we're working with IT people who can't do simple things.
 07-05 00:14 <blank> The IT people work in Big Pharmas. Think Genetech size.
 07-05 00:14 <blank> They copy files by using a mouse because they don't know how to do it otherwise.
 07-05 00:15 <Ashy> Too big to fail<C-w>pay-for-good-people
 07-05 00:15 <blank> It's just the culture of not knowing how a package manager works.
 07-05 00:17 <Crocodillian> oh, another very useful feature of docker/podman is that you can run shells in random distros/apps in seconds
 07-05 00:18 <Crocodillian> I wrote this guide about this specifically: https://github.com/rkitover/docker-shell-guide
 07-05 00:18 <plzbum> [ GitHub - rkitover/docker-shell-guide: Guide and Scripts for Running Shells in Docker Images ] - github.com
 07-05 00:18 <blank> I have people that can barely keep a VM up and running.
 07-05 00:18 <Crocodillian> it will also give you a very basic understanding of docker/podman, other than dockerfiles which you can read about elsewhere
 07-05 00:19 <blank> I need to see someone else use it to solve a problem.
	07-04 23:51 <Crocodillian> ok, so let me explain a bit
	07-04 23:51 <Crocodillian> if you don't mind
	07-04 23:51 <blank> Okay.
	07-04 23:53 <Crocodillian> sorry had to pee
	07-04 23:53 <Crocodillian> have you used chroots for anything before?
	07-04 23:53 <Crocodillian> or bsd jails
	07-04 23:54 <blank> Nope.
	07-04 23:55 <Crocodillian> so a chroot is when you open a shell in a directory that becomes the whole linux system in that shell
	07-04 23:55 <blank> Yes, I remember that much.
	07-04 23:56 <Crocodillian> it still runs on the same kernel, but it's kind of analagous to a virtual machine
	07-04 23:56 <Crocodillian> for example, you could be running ubuntu and open a chroot into a fedora system
	07-04 23:57 <Crocodillian> then you could become users in that fedora system, run any apps from it, etc.
	07-04 23:57 <blank> Okay.
	07-04 23:58 <Crocodillian> so containers are kind of like that, and there is a whole infrastructure in the kernel now called OCI (Open Container Iniitiative)
	07-04 23:58 <Crocodillian> this is what podman is an interface
	07-04 23:59 <Crocodillian> podman is a command that works just like the docker command, except it uses OCI
	07-04 23:59 <blank> Okay, so it's a chroot with a standard from the kernel.
	07-05 00:00 <Crocodillian> yes, and many other things use containerization now too, for example flatpak uses ubuntu/etc. runtimes for apps
	07-05 00:01 <Crocodillian> there is a lot more to it than just chroot, it can do virtual networking and such, but the chroot concept is the most important
	07-05 00:01 <Crocodillian> now, why the fuck does anyone want this
	07-05 00:01 <blank> Sure.
	07-05 00:02 <Crocodillian> suppose you are packaging an app for deployment on linux servers or desktops
	07-05 00:02 <Crocodillian> you make a container with ubuntu and all the shit you want
	07-05 00:02 <Crocodillian> including your app
	07-05 00:02 <Crocodillian> and then your users can bring it up in a few minutes instead of spending hours installing obscure packages or whatever the fuck
	07-05 00:03 <Crocodillian> and because it's a container that runs on the same kernel, it's much much lighter weight than a vm, so you can have fucking thousands of these things
	07-05 00:03 <Crocodillian> which is what people do with kubernetes
	07-05 00:04 <Crocodillian> people often try to use alpine instead of ubuntu because it makes for a much smaller and lighter weight container
	07-05 00:05 <Crocodillian> on docker hub there are thousands of packaged containers like, a whole mail system with postfix/imap/etc./etc./etc. that is configured by people who actually understand mail, which is very few people
	07-05 00:06 <Crocodillian> so if you want to run a mail server, it makes much more sense to use one of those
	07-05 00:06 <Crocodillian> or say you want a specific version of php or node or something, instead of spending hours trying to install or compile it in your distro, you just run the container in minutes or seconds
	07-05 00:07 <Crocodillian> makes sense so far?
	07-05 00:10 <blank> Yes.
	07-05 00:10 <Crocodillian> ok, so there are also things like docker compose and kubernetes
	07-05 00:10 <Ashy> KOOBIES
	07-05 00:11 <Crocodillian> what they do is allow you to hook a bunch of containers together in a config using the container virtual networking
	07-05 00:11 <Crocodillian> so like, you have your nginx, your php/node/whatever, your app, your database, your proxy, etc. etc. etc.
	07-05 00:12 <Crocodillian> and you can bring all this shit up much much faster than if you had to do it manually, because it's all ready to go to just hook into your config
	07-05 00:12 <blank> It's starting to sound less useful.
	07-05 00:12 <blank> Web developers already don't know what they're doing.
	07-05 00:12 <Crocodillian> yeah it's pure fucking cancer
	07-05 00:13 <Crocodillian> but with kubernetes they can run literally hundreds of apps on a single machine
	07-05 00:13 <Crocodillian> maybe thousands, I dunno
	07-05 00:13 <Ashy> it's a side effect of nobody learning how to use their distro's package manager and systemd
	07-05 00:14 <blank> I was in a meeting two weeks ago where I found out we're working with IT people who can't do simple things.
	07-05 00:14 <blank> The IT people work in Big Pharmas. Think Genetech size.
	07-05 00:14 <blank> They copy files by using a mouse because they don't know how to do it otherwise.
	07-05 00:15 <Ashy> Too big to fail<C-w>pay-for-good-people
	07-05 00:15 <blank> It's just the culture of not knowing how a package manager works.
	07-05 00:17 <Crocodillian> oh, another very useful feature of docker/podman is that you can run shells in random distros/apps in seconds
	07-05 00:18 <Crocodillian> I wrote this guide about this specifically: https://github.com/rkitover/docker-shell-guide
	07-05 00:18 <plzbum> [ GitHub - rkitover/docker-shell-guide: Guide and Scripts for Running Shells in Docker Images ] - github.com
	07-05 00:18 <blank> I have people that can barely keep a VM up and running.
	07-05 00:18 <Crocodillian> it will also give you a very basic understanding of docker/podman, other than dockerfiles which you can read about elsewhere
	07-05 00:19 <blank> I need to see someone else use it to solve a problem.