The Associated Press NFT Discord Chat - Refugee Boat NFT

AP_NFT_Discord_2022-02-25

[00:16] Thomas: Hi everyone, Thomas here, keen amateur photographer and lover of photojournalism. I bought my first AP NTF a few weeks ago and just jumping on the discord now.
[00:18] Julia | AP: Welcome Thomas! We’re happy you’re here. Which NFT did you get?
[00:25] Thomas: Thanks Julia! I got Wong Maye-E' Children's Palace timeless edition
[00:33] Julia | AP: One of my personal favorites. If you go over to 🐤┃ap-twitter-spaces, there’s a conversation with @maye-e where she talks about capturing this image. Really good stuff.
[00:52] Thomas: Awesome thanks Julia, I'll check it out!
[14:02] Brian | AP: GM
[17:43] Brian | AP:
[17:47] Brian | AP: A big AP thank you to all of our early supporters... snapshot has been taken.
[19:19] ronny: hey
[23:19] Xooa Wright: Hey Alex I wanted to check in are you ok man?
[23:43] AManForAllSaisons: Who thought this was a good idea?
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[23:48] jesopo: bruh moment
[23:48] jesopo: heated journalist moment
[23:48] copypaste: Yes hello I'm here to make sure that I'm still going to be able to bid on that
[23:48] copypaste: You deleted the tweet so I want to know
[23:52] copypaste: Clearly it's the most controversial image that you have put out and clearly it has drawn more people here than anything else so clearly I want to bid on it 😂
[23:53] jesopo: i too wish to buy ownership of suffering migrants
[23:53] AManForAllSaisons: that's really great for the AP brand, nice job everybody
[23:58] copypaste: @jesopo NFT bro solidarity 😊
[23:59] baby: yeah lol this is certainyl the pic that people are gonna think of when they think of ap nfts
[00:04] copypaste: @Brian | AP @Xooa Wright your rules saying not to ping staff for no reason but this is clearly not no reason. You haven't written on Twitter whether this is still going to go to auction on the site at 12:00... From my perspective it's looking like a dirty delete so can you just say whether or not it's going to go up for bid

If it is, that's definitely a courageous decision in the British sense of the term courageous
But if it isn't, then I don't know what it says about the rest of this project and selling images of human suffering in general
[00:06] AManForAllSaisons: Love the video of the firefighter battling a massive climate change induced forrest fire too
[00:06] AManForAllSaisons: that's just chef's kiss
[00:06] jesopo: 😚👌
[00:07] copypaste: Now please the staff are typing let them massage me and thereby the public and its perceptions would you PLEASE
[00:08] copypaste: @Xooa Wright I saw you typing and apologize for my rude new friends. Please continue, we are all eagerly awaiting to hear whether we can bid on floating migrant NFT
[00:13] copypaste: He really just going to stop typing like that man
[00:16] Xooa Wright: Hey apologies man
[00:16] copypaste: Np
[00:18] Xooa Wright: To be transparent the photos wont be sold and all proceeds go to the photographers on any image we sell.
[00:19] Xooa Wright: photo*
[00:19] AManForAllSaisons: so each photographer has to agree to have their image or video listed?
[00:20] Xooa Wright: Yes. for the photographers who have passed all money goes back to the family
[00:21] AManForAllSaisons: to what family?
[00:22] Xooa Wright: AP values the integrity behind photojournalism and only wants use this project as a means to help progress the capabilities for photojournalist to continue documenting the work that sheds light on these situations
[00:22] Xooa Wright: and the family of the photographer
[00:23] AManForAllSaisons: ok, but are the photographers actively consenting to their work being used like this? who is deciding? them? the AP? Xooa?
[00:23] Xooa Wright: yes in fact most are in the discord
[00:24] AManForAllSaisons: and do you have any policies on what pictures are or are not ethical to sell in this fashion?
[00:24] Brian | AP: All photographers are consulted and are active participants in the project.
[00:26] copypaste: My question is a little bit different... Clearly what happened tonight doesn't have to do with whether the photographers are consenting. It has to do with the consent of the people in the boat, and whether a video of them should be turned into a commodity
[00:26] copypaste: How are you deciding what photos get turned into NFTs and do you even recognize that something went wrong here other than you went viral
[00:26] AManForAllSaisons: Agreed, I was trying to clearly establish moral responsibility before getting to that
[00:31] Brian | AP: We have multiple people across the AP talking through the selections including our photojournalists. We see a world where photojournalism NFTs have a place. And that place helps AP with our overall mission - to inform the world. The video is part of a bigger story and we realized we needed to do a better job at telling it.
[00:32] AManForAllSaisons: so clearly your multiple people failed in a big way here.
[00:33] AManForAllSaisons: and your answer implies you don't have any written policies to guide you
[00:33] AManForAllSaisons: Is a dead Ukranian child NFT in bounds?
[00:33] peterhoffman: Wow! Giving new meaning to the cash grab critiques. This is pretty bonkers.
[00:34] AManForAllSaisons: because maybe you should think about those questions
[00:34] copypaste: I have actually been a subject of the AP in the past so I understand all too well that photojournalism is useful
[00:34] copypaste: However I would say that you definitely need written policies and you need to be thinking about this more because he's right  clearly something failed
[00:34] copypaste: Failed really badly
[00:35] Brian | AP: We lean on our existing guidelines for storytelling.
[00:35] peterhoffman: I have been a photojournalist for a good portion of my career - so I agree it is useful - but I can’t think of one editor I’ve worked with who would be on board with something like this.
[00:36] peterhoffman: Might be time to visit ethics specifically in the selling of NFTs as opposed to editorial distribution? These are very different contexts.
[00:36] AManForAllSaisons: So, if the AP would publish this photo as part of your "storytelling", there's nothing stopping you from selling it as an NFT if none of the "multiple people in the room" object?
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[00:37] AManForAllSaisons: how diverse is this room?
[00:37] AManForAllSaisons: say, versus AP diversity as a whole?
[00:40] Xooa Wright: Have you all looked at the Marketplace, AP maintains journalistic integrity for every photo used
[00:41] AManForAllSaisons: then why did you delete the tweet?
[00:41] AManForAllSaisons: if it maintained journalistic integrity, put it back up, cowards
[00:41] AManForAllSaisons: Yeah, I see you sold out a video and photo of a massive climate change induced firestorm
[00:41] AManForAllSaisons: what was the gas on all those transactions?
[00:43] peterhoffman: The photo isn’t incendiary - it’s important - it’s the usage that seems really…off base.
[00:44] Brian | AP: AP is a non-profit. All proceeds that the AP makes go back into funding our journalism. A portion also goes directly to the photographers who receive a % on the primary and any future sales.
[00:45] peterhoffman: I’m aware of how AP works. I don’t think that changes the optics of this. That said, if backing up this usage why delete?
[00:45] AManForAllSaisons: and what's to stop this from happening again?
[00:45] copypaste: And if you're backing up the usage why are you not still putting it for bid tomorrow
[00:45] copypaste: Because you told me that it wasn't going to be put for bid tomorrow lol
[00:45] AManForAllSaisons: true
[00:45] AManForAllSaisons: they did say that
[00:46] Xooa Wright: The tweet was part of a whole it didn't tell the entire story, the video was minted through polygon 3 editions minimal gas
[00:46] fenix: Will the photo of the migrants in the boat at sea still be sold as an NFT?
[00:46] AManForAllSaisons: try again with less marketing bullshit
[00:47] baby: lol u thought this was a community yall are just customers
[00:47] baby: expect platitudes
[00:47] peterhoffman: 501c3 status isn’t a defacto exemption from making a cash grab.
[00:47] Xooa Wright: Its Polygon, its very little
[00:48] AManForAllSaisons: the environmental impact of your firestorm series aside...
[00:48] copypaste: Just answer this yes or no
[00:48] AManForAllSaisons: are you going to sell a "story" involving the migrants on the boat?
[00:49] Xooa Wright: No
[00:49] copypaste: Thanks
[00:49] AManForAllSaisons: so if it followed your standards... but you pulled it because it didn't tell the whole story... but don't have any guiding written ethical principles specifically for NFT monetization....
[00:50] fenix: What about the NFT though? Is that still being sold?
[00:50] AManForAllSaisons: what's to stop this from happening again with a different image?
[00:53] jesopo: i think the concern is from the outside it seems so easy to spot that this one was going to immediately and dramatically tank, so it feels like the process between suggesting it and publishing it either was empty or full of people already sunk-costed in to cryptocurrency 
[00:54] AManForAllSaisons: if the answer is going to be "a conversation with multiple people in line with AP standards" I'm going to refer you to my previous question about how diverse the perspectives on your team are.
[00:54] Brian | AP: We shared the tweet before fully telling the story behind the video to give proper context. This is something we will address in the future.
[00:54] fenix: But are you still going to sell that NFT?
[00:55] Xooa Wright: We are working extremely hard to build partnerships that help the Photojournalistic community, the money is returned to the photographers whose images we used.
[00:55] Xooa Wright: no
[00:55] AManForAllSaisons: so what you're saying is, if you had properly "told the story" in your tweet, the migrant boat photo could come back?
[00:56] baby: you gotta dress up your sufferporn nft
[00:56] peterhoffman: That’s great. There will be way better ways to do this than to sell human suffering as NFTs. Get those images in news outlets.
[00:56] AManForAllSaisons: so as long as you "set the context" correctly, you're comfortable with selling any AP photograph?
[00:56] AManForAllSaisons: are you guys interns?
[00:58] Brian | AP: The NFT was selected for an upcoming drop, but never minted. We are listening to all the feedback we are receiving.
[00:58] AManForAllSaisons: are y'all going to write up some ethical principles and publish them for the community?
[00:58] copypaste: yeah this is basically what I was thinking... Like how is there nobody on your team who looked at that tweet and said "guys we are going to get dragged for this"...
[00:59] Brian | AP: Great idea. We can certainly share our principles with the community.
[01:00] AManForAllSaisons: I really do wonder
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[01:01] AManForAllSaisons: oh hi @Dwayne, I didn't notice you join there. Are you part of the NFT team there at the Associated Press or have you parachuted if from PR/Legal?
[01:09] copypaste: I love how it died after that comment
[01:09] AManForAllSaisons: oh shit, did none of y'all think to let them know yet?
[01:09] copypaste: 😂
[01:11] AManForAllSaisons: Oh, welcome to the AP Director of Blockchain & Data.
[01:11] baby: dwayne's always been here
[01:11] baby: he's the big boss
[01:11] baby: this is all his scheme
[01:11] AManForAllSaisons: he's certainly not acting like one tonight tho is he?
[01:12] AManForAllSaisons: his team's just twisting in the wind here and he's afk
[01:12] baby: no way
[01:12] copypaste: I can only imagine the texts that are getting sent
[01:12] baby: he's definitely reading this
[01:12] AManForAllSaisons: So Dwayne, when can we expect a draft of your team's ethical principles?
[01:13] fenix: Hello @Dwayne, do you have anything to add regarding the NFT announcement today?
[01:13] DeadlyBrad42: hello i am here to buy some digitally-exclusive human suffering, for the betterment of AP's coffers
[01:14] copypaste: Well I'll have you know that they very rudely decided to stop selling their most famous piece of human suffering so far and so we may just have to go elsewhere @DeadlyBrad42 ;~; 
[01:15] AManForAllSaisons: @Julia | AP is from AP Images "Community", maybe she's a better person to answer the ethical questions than the Blockchain director. lol
[01:16] baby: you guys keep acting like they owe you anything
[01:16] copypaste: Can I just say in general it's weird that CNN etc hopped onto this bandwagon
[01:17] copypaste: When you buy one of these blockchain thingies you don't even get transferred any right over it, I'm pretty sure you don't even have the right to use it in a publication that you own lol
[01:18] copypaste: Idk I'll never understand this in general, it isn't quite the same as buying a negative of a historic photo is it
[01:19] DeadlyBrad42: Nope, buying an NFT doesn't mean you own any sort of rights to it at all, and unlike buying a negative you don't own the "original" of anything. You literally just own a guid in a decentralized database
[01:19] jesopo: it's a true crystallisation of capitalism; you're buying the experience of spending money
[01:20] DeadlyBrad42: Turns out, people will pay. And if people will pay, people will sell to them!
[01:20] DeadlyBrad42: The markets are beautiful
[01:20] AManForAllSaisons: a link to a video of a boat full of desperate human beings risking their lives and their children's lives, in the hopes of fleeing whatever catastrophe in their home country made them think taking to open water in an overcrowded rubber dinghy is the better option.
[01:21] AManForAllSaisons: and none of you had a second thought about it
[01:21] AManForAllSaisons: you're selling a star name database of human misery, and that's what your customers are buying.
[01:21] DeadlyBrad42: It's not even like you own the link though 😂 You don't own where it points to (the server that hosts it), you can't change or update it. You just own the "row" in the "database"
[01:22] DeadlyBrad42: Fun enough for NatGeo-style pictures, but migrants risking their lives? Christ
[01:22] Brian | AP: Hi everyone, the video is of a rescue of migrants. Felipe Dana, and award-winning war photojournalist was part of that rescue and was able to cover the story. This is why they have life jackets on. 

Please take a look at our marketplace for what we've selected and minted to date. Also, we will be sharing our guidelines.
[01:23] DeadlyBrad42: @Brian | AP hey do you guys do like, any sort of review before you post nonsense like this? Or is it just Richard from Marketing shooting whatever load he wants right onto the twitterfeed
[01:24] Thomas: At least people are not getting kicked off the discord for voicing their concerns, which happens with a lot of projects
[01:24] AManForAllSaisons: hey Brian... was any of the money going to go to any of the people in that boat?
[01:24] AManForAllSaisons: no fibbing
[01:25] AManForAllSaisons: talk about damning with faint praise
[01:25] copypaste: That's true Thomas I do kind of recognize that... I honestly expected to have been banned a long time ago so I do have to say I appreciate we got at least some questions answered... But then again we should remember that this is a major company and not just some fly by night operation
[01:25] AManForAllSaisons: "at least the Associated Press isn't silencing critics of their NFT disaster pron"
[01:26] baby: i think some of yall just like causing drama 😈
[01:26] Brian | AP: We aren't looking to ban anyone. A healthy conversation around photojournalism NFTs is important.
[01:26] AManForAllSaisons: So Brian, when can we expect a clear deliverable on those guidelines?
[01:27] AManForAllSaisons: And will you be announcing them on twitter, given that twitter is what led to you even considering the idea of putting some ethical principles on paper?
[01:27] Brian | AP: We can post if Friday.
[01:27] Thomas: I'm not supporting their decision, just pointing out that this kind of discussion would not be taking place on other discords. I don't have anything to add to the discussion, its been covered. Also perhaps take a slightly less aggressive approach to people who are leaving comments?
[01:29] AManForAllSaisons: wasn't a critique of you, just of the implications about both the broader NFT space and the AP in this instance.
[01:31] Thomas: That's fair, that criticism can be extended to much of the media
[01:31] AManForAllSaisons: I look forward to it.
[01:31] AManForAllSaisons: thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule of blockchaining things
[01:33] Cory M: Just curious, what does the compensation model look like for photographers and do they have to opt in? (As in, if my news org is submitting photos, can those be grabbed for use as NFTs? Im curious because the listing has work from "unknown photographers)
[01:33] AManForAllSaisons: oh that is an excellent question... i might stick around
[01:34] jesopo: unrelated but i hope everyone is doing ok given the stressful state of the world
[01:35] Brian | AP: It varies. 12-60% right on on the primary. They all get a % on every secondary sale. All photographers have opted in and gave us a number of photos they wanted us to use. We selected from the group they sent us.
[01:38] Brian | AP: For Anja Niedringhaus, a world-famous photographer who passed away, we worked closely with AP staff that knew her best. We also worked with her family to get approval. They chose the charity that proceeds from here 3 photo NFTS are going. There is a museum being created in her name to highlight her work.
[01:38] AManForAllSaisons: are the photographers being paid in crypto or real money?
[01:38] Brian | AP: crypto
[01:39] Cory M: Thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it
[01:39] AManForAllSaisons: thought so
[01:41] AManForAllSaisons: that's it from me I think. thanks again for your time. @copypaste, you got anything?
[01:45] copypaste: I don't, no. Thanks. I consider the thread I made about this basically over...https://twitter.com/fr_brennan/status/1496995058792423429?t=QcbO7iVKTZQ963xbC9jK0w&s=19 ... I'm going to check back probably tomorrow and the next day just to see if that actually gets listed and what is listed next 

Fredrick Brennan  (@fr_brennan)
Haven't had much to laugh about today but when I realized that this right here is an unintentional joke about NFTs I let out a loud one.

Just joining the server to try to figure out what happened to the migrant NFT and maybe troll some bros softly. https://t.co/XTisWoUO6D


Twitter•Yesterday at 23:46
[01:46] copypaste: And I probably am around as interested as you in whatever they do on Friday but no I don't have anything for tonight :)
[01:46] AManForAllSaisons: the AP should make a donation to a refugee charity to make up for all this
[01:47] AManForAllSaisons: and for the couple hours of valuable business consulting we've give then for free
[01:47] fenix: @Brian | AP, thanks for the insight. What do you think about the ethics here of what some might see as closer to commercialization (not just for the AP, but also the people who trade the NFTs) rather than informative and editorial journalism, especially on imagery like migrants at sea?
[01:53] Brian | AP: Tough question and one we talk about daily. Our world is photojournalism, so we want to make sure we stay true to who we are. But that can bring forward difficult images that tell difficult stories. One of our primary team members is @DanA. He is one the best war photographers in the world and is helping guide us. We believe there is a place in the NFT world to tell stories both good and bad. We just need to find the right way to do it.
[01:54] Brian | AP: We've been in touch with many photojournalists in the space who are asking that very question. We joined a Twitter Space on it and had a very open discussion. This chapter hasn't been written yet. So much to learn.
[01:59] Brian | AP: There is always a chance that someone will take a "tough photo" and repurpose it. That world exists without NFTs as well. There is definitely a balance we all need to find in this space. In the end, for AP, our goal is to tell stories of the world and to elevate voices that don't get heard.
[02:02] Brian | AP: The migrants at sea tell a story of a rescue by a nonprofit organization. Our photojournalist was there to capture it. If he isn't there, that story isn't told.
[02:04] fenix: @Brian | AP That's a good defense for photojournalism itself, but how do you stretch that to NFTs which are often traded for status and financial gain? Does that play any role in thinking about whether NFTs and NFT culture are an appropriate medium for the gravity of a particular image?
[02:06] peterhoffman: This doesn’t address the NFT context. Defending photojournalism as a practice distraction from what people are reacting to.
[02:10] Brian | AP: 100% yes, it does play a role.
[02:14] Brian | AP: @peterhoffman @fenix mind if I as the same question to you? It is an important question and we all need as much insight as possible.
[02:15] fenix: Can you elaborate on how it plays a role within the AP?
[02:18] Brian | AP: We have a number of questions we ask ourselves on each image. Some are easy questions that put a particular image out of group we will mint when we are deciding. Easy things like showing faces, death, gore, etc...
[02:21] Brian | AP: Some are a bit harder and merit a longer discussion.
[02:22] Brian | AP: If we did an AMA here in Discord on this topic, would you be interested? This conversation is very important for us all to have. I'd love to get some of our photojournalists in here to share.
[02:27] Brian | AP: It is family dinner time, so I'll be away for a bit. Will pop back in shortly if you have more questions.
[02:29] Dwayne: I'll be here all night to answer questions and listen to feedback on the image.
[02:34] Dwayne: Another way to gain some insight into our selection process would be to look at the images that we have minted. That's been our work to date.
[02:40] Dwayne: I'm pretty devastated that we seem to have damaged our work to date with our planned use of the rescue video.  I'm the team member accountable for that decision.
[02:40] Fat Gum Fam: I have a question: Have you all considered that establishing a habit of minting images into NFTs--which exist to be sold as privately held assets--might damage the idea that AP journalists are working in the public's interests? I certainly would be discouraged from interacting with or being photographed by a journalist if I knew their organization might directly turn my image into a private commodity. 

Surely there are better ways to ensure that AP's photojournalists are properly compensated and appreciated for their work?
[02:43] peterhoffman: NFTs are digital commodities. Making money (even if it is reinvested in important photojournalism) off of images that are blatantly depicting human suffering strikes me as obviously unethical - it takes the every day arguments about photojournalistic exploitation into a wild new realm where it is the digital equivalent of slapping it on the wall of an art exhibition with a large price tag affixed - but under the guise of something nobler. It’s not - not how I see it at least. The image is important - it should be seen, but context is incredibly important and AP controls context to the extent of licensing and distribution. This is a matter of taste in the end, I suppose, but I can’t figure how selling an image like this (as opposed to a feature picture carried by its aesthetic qualities or something with historical significance) passes muster. As I’d noted earlier I have spent some time in the profession (small newspapers and then freelance) - so I personally don’t need persuading regarding the value of the practice. 

The credibility of on the ground the journalists is a concern too as noted - it’s not like things have gotten better for them in recent years.
[02:51] Dwayne: Yes, for sure. We've spent years trying to figure out that challenge.
[02:51] peterhoffman: Well, it is early days in this space. You probably know that versions of these arguments are common with images that show things people don’t want to see. Hopefully AP just uses it to learn. This is just my opinion but I don’t think the NFT space is akin to editorial distribution and so different ethics and approaches should be considered. The fact that it is a private sale and it is about ownership is front and center here - so how that mixes with the picture can be any number of ways.
[02:53] Dwayne: Agree, Peter. Context is fundamental, and that's where we messed up on this image.
[02:58] Dwayne: I do believe blockchain tech can help real facts to become immutable. That's another key driver of our work. For example,  we've published election results onchain.
[02:59] Fat Gum Fam: And? What were the reasons that made AP feel that minting NFTs was worth the risk of damaging its reputation? Why, specifically, does AP think this is an ethical and beneficial way to fund its photojournalists and their families?
[03:01] Dwayne: Almost every single app/contract running on chain needs information. We recently launched a node to help us get facts onchain to help anyone or any app have access to AP's reporting.
[03:06] Fat Gum Fam: Hang on, "blockchain can help real facts to become immutable?" This is a word salad. "Real facts" are already facts. And it's the efforts of journalists and factcheckers that spread those facts to the public that enshrine them in history. They've been doing it for centuries without blockchain. And AP utilizing blockchain for archival purposes has nothing to do with turning images into private assets either.
[03:09] Dwayne: Agreed the NFT project has different objectives than the blockchain as distribution/archive project.
[03:12] Fat Gum Fam: Cool, then can we get back on the topic at hand? Why does AP think that minting it's images into NFTs--privately held assets--is an ethical means of raising funds for it's photojournalists, and what reason does AP have to think it's worth the risk to its journalistic reputation?
[03:19] copypaste: Hmm .... Making facts immutable. I'm just trying to think this through. I guess if we actually think back to the AP's history, it was a wire service right. As in if you owned a newspaper you could subscribe to its wire and you would get a printout everyday of national stories you could run along with local reporting that you're presumably already doing.

So is what he's trying to say that they could basically put those stories in a blockchain so that they would not expire or be changed by anyone, so there's a cryptographic proof of their legitimacy
[03:19] copypaste: And if that is what Dwayne is trying to say why do that instead of just have SSL on your website lol
[03:24] Dwayne: Agreed. There are many other technologies to help us store facts and data. I've just come to the personal conclusion based on current experience,  facts will have a better chance to survive in a decentralized environment.
[03:25] fenix: @Dwayne I'd like to hear a response on this specific topic as well.
[03:32] AManForAllSaisons: I would too
[03:32] Dwayne: Of course...just typing my response.
[03:51] chompers: If nothing else, @Dwayne it might be worthwhile to admit that the optics are absolute shit.
[03:55] Dwayne: Overall, collectors buy hardcopy photojournalism everyday. The goal for us is to develop a digital but verified version of that off-line market. I believe that was an ethical decision. I've questioned it a million times tonight but I still feel the digital concept is ethical.  What I did that was unethical and warrants significant scrutiny was to greenlight the migrant rescue photo. That was a mistake.
[03:55] Fat Gum Fam: Well while Dwayne is typing, I was also wondering if Polygon is truly an eco-friendly cryptocurrency, so I just plain Googled, and it appears to be the same cryptocurrency used by the World Wildlife Fund that has a considerably larger carbon footprint than it would first seem at a  glance, due to the way it's directly connected to Ethereum. Here's the article I'm looking at, fyi https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/8/22923530/world-wildlife-fund-nft-polygon-layer-2-blockchain-energy-emissions
[03:56] Dwayne: Optics are the worst I could have imagined, @chompers. 
[04:02] chompers: If your calloused disregard for others rightfully ruins your career, I hope that others at least learn from your mistakes. Peace.
[04:03] Fat Gum Fam: Seems like AP, being a journalism outlet, should have already been aware that WWF tried and failed to justify Polygon as an "environmentally-friendly" cryptocurrency option? So it'd be interesting to know why they went with it anyway, but Dwayne's already answering a pretty big question right now, so that one can wait a bit.
[04:10] Dwayne: I sent that response thru a couple mins ago. On environmental ethics: Using Polygon to mint takes up the equivalent of about 2.5 emails vs proof of work. This was still a difficult decision and we know even using Polygon would be troubling, but we proceeded with our layer 2 understanding and continue to debate the environmental concerns vs the effort and timing in the industry to move toward proof of stake.
[04:10] Fat Gum Fam: Ah, sorry, we pressed send at the same time, so I missed this.  Thank you Dwayne
[04:12] Dwayne: No worries. I appreciate your questions.
[04:14] fenix: @Dwayne, The AP tweeted that they're reviewing their efforts - is this a reconsideration of the entire NFT program? Or what does that review involve? https://twitter.com/AssociatedPress/status/1497018100277202946

The Associated Press (@AssociatedPress)
(2 of 2)
AP’s NFT marketplace is a pilot program, and we are immediately reviewing our efforts. As a not-for-profit, AP’s mission is to inform the world with accurate, unbiased journalism. That remains our primary focus.

Twitter•Today at 01:18
[04:17] Dwayne: We'll be focused on a review of how we pick the images we want to offer collectors.
[04:28] KitConway: As an aside, what a shame that the markets/policies are such that news outlets even need to consider things like NFT.
[04:33] Dwayne: With the exception of this rescue boat decision,  I do believe the process we created served to keep our efforts ethical. Since we'll be reviewing this, I'm interested in other's thoughts about our previous selections and whether we could have done better.
[04:35] KitConway: Out of curiosity are the figures shareable/public on how much revenue this NFT project has brought in?
[04:39] Dwayne: Hi. Mostly. Collectors can pay with Crypto  and credit cards. All of the crypto transactions are public, which is an important feature of the blockchain. The credit card transactions, however, are old school and we would need to share those numbers. We've been very transparent of where the revenue goes, just as an FYI. Photographers get 12-60% depending on the copyright of the photo. We pay a 25% rev share to our marketplace provider and AP retains the rest except for a couple of cases where we donated some of the revenue to charities supporting photojournalism.
[04:40] KitConway: Thanks
[04:44] Fat Gum Fam: One last question from me: Given how so many other companies and organizations have announced NFT projects or blockchain integration only to face immediate public blowback, often forcing them to backtrack (like the previously mentioned WWF, plus Kickstarter and Discord, just off the top of my head), what made AP think its own NFTs would go over well?
[04:48] AManForAllSaisons: FOMO
[04:50] Dwayne: I believe in tokenizing photojournalism. This is what made me think our NFT market would go over well.
[04:51] KitConway: In a vacuum I do think media organizations should be trying new things and taking thoughtful risks as a way to stick around and keep pace with society. In this particular case it seems like a clear flop, but think that’s worth considering too. 
[04:53] Fat Gum Fam: Your personal beliefs? That's all? Not even market research that just didn't account for the massive mistake of the migrant photo? AP can't have just made this decision based on your enthusiasm alone.
[04:54] deathwish: Was there any consideration given to the fact that others might have seen it as just commodifying suffering and/or that in general, many of those who ventured into NFTs were not widely received…?
[04:54] deathwish: Irrespective of whether you personally believe it is or not, did you consider that that was a distinct possibility?
[04:56] AManForAllSaisons: I'll let dwayne finish typing, but I had another point I want to raise. Given the photographers are paid their cut in crypto, that seems pretty scummy both from a market volatility perspective, as well as the fact it requires them to buy into the crypto economy, perhaps against their better judgment or moral scruples, in order to get paid.
[04:59] Dwayne: Yes. We've been looking at all our data to help inform these decisions. I think you can see some really distinct patterns in our choices as a result of that research...up until this one. It is a complete outlier and a mistake.
[05:01] AManForAllSaisons: Are you willing to seriously consider the possibility the entire concept is fatally flawed, or are we too deep into the sunk costs fallacy here?
[05:03] Dwayne: Good question. Early on, we knew we had to take crypto but we also added fiat payments. We discussed whether we should convert the photog's portion to USD and we looked at the pros and the cons. We decided the photographer should be the person making that financial decision about their own money. Photographers can convert to USD right away or they can choose to remain in crypto and convert in the future.
[05:05] Dwayne: It's certainly possible that my decision to use the photo (it was actually a video) was fatally flawed. But I don't think the overall effort or vision is.
[05:09] AManForAllSaisons: I didn't ask what you think Dwayne.
[05:09] AManForAllSaisons: I asked if you're open minded enough to sit with the idea that just maybe, it was.
[05:10] AManForAllSaisons: to entertain the notion, reflect on it, and not just immediately reassure yourself that your vision for tokenizing photojournalism is good and it is the kids who are wrong, actually
[05:11] Dwayne: I've been considering this all night. Reliving all of the decisions about how we set up the service.
[05:12] deathwish: But did you consider that the issue is not how you set up the process, as opposed to the fact the process actually existed? As in, people had no clue on what the fine details as much as they show a video of migrants on a boat being sold (in the most popular of ways), and went Yeah. No. Do not do that.
[05:13] deathwish: And that any repackaging of the video, in any different process, as long as it was being sold as an NFT, would have elicited the same backlash?
[05:14] Dwayne: For sure, I'm open minded to that and really hope for honesty and clarity in my thinking. I'm keenly aware of my biases but will practice the discipline to set them aside.
[05:19] Dwayne: The photo was never minted or offered in the marketplace., it never got that far. But you are right, we messed up in the selection itself and in doing a very poor job of providing details in the tweet.
[05:23] AManForAllSaisons: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/24/profiting-off-suffering-ap-cancels-sale-of-migrant-boat-nft-amid-backlash?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews#Echobox=1645761493
the Guardian
‘Profiting off suffering’: AP cancels sale of migrant boat NFT amid...
The news agency has since deleted the tweet promoting the sale and called it ‘poor choice of imagery’

06:17] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Dwayne - can you  be specific about what value you think NFTs create for the AP in terms of digital ownership that justify the engagement with the ethical concerns of the environmental impact of blockchain, the inability to actually authenticate users meaningfully via blockchain technologies, and the ongoing criminal / fraud activity enabled by the cryptocurrency and NFT communities? 
[06:20] <<<~~~~~~>>>: (Appreciate you being willing to engage like this, as well!)
[06:25] doodlemancy: I see you saying that this was an "outlier" and a "mistake" and I just cannot put myself in your shoes, Dwayne. I can't understand how you managed to make this mistake unless you literally chose this photo at random. When you're done answering the questions above I'd love to hear a blow-by-blow of how exactly you decided  "yes, commodifying a photo of migrants seeking safety is a moral and ethical thing to do". I agree that it was a poor choice in the same way that me, say, going to a bus stop and slapping whoever I run into first would be a poor choice, in that it was inexplicable and cruel in a bizarre way.
[06:28] AManForAllSaisons: Uhhh Dwayne noped out
[06:33] <<<~~~~~~>>>: ahh, well, ty for letting me know. I'm trying to get updated numbers on the actual consumption of Polygon (due to the way they use Ethereum to record their transactions), cause it's definitely not what they claim in their marketing materials, but I also have a hard time blaming someone for not believing that a thing that is stated factually is presented in such a misleading way when it requires a reasonable degree of technical understanding to figure out how Polygon's apparently reasonable statements are actually just totally misleading 
[06:35] <<<~~~~~~>>>: of course, blockchain tech needs to be taken at the least trustworthy view of any claimed use that isn't "use technology to recreate the gold standard" but /shrug
[06:37] Zeekou: Hey I am very interested in buying and collecting few nfts on the market place but I age few questions: my understanding they buyer won’t get the copyright is that correct? 
Second question: Will AP creat more editions of the same pictures in the future?
[11:53] jesopo: good morning gamers
[13:12] BizzleMcGizzle: Awesome questions! I would like to know this too
[14:06] Dwayne: GM. Correct. NFT owners do not receive copyright. The token and image come with a personal use license but with one difference, resale of the token onchain is permitted. Once we've minted a photo, it will not be minted again.
[14:11] Dwayne: The analog equivalent is buying one of a series of prints, but having a transparent way of proving ownership.
[14:18] Zeekou: Thank you 🙏🏻
[14:19] Zeekou: Sorry about the typo
[14:21] Dwayne: GM. Our belief is that the public ledger underlying a blockchain can be used as a technology to deliver news and data that is clearly traceable back to the source. For the news industry, use of the blockchain for that purpose is important research. If we put news onchain, does the theory of immutability actually hold true. We're not a poster child for the original reasons of the blockchain and crypto, but do want to understand it for our purpose. Polygon's tech gave us much more comfort of our actual impact on the environment. And yes, there are folks who adopt all tech for crime/fraud including the telephone and mail. That's abhorrent and we hope those who support the utlity of this tech will continue to fight those with criminal intent.
[14:22] Dwayne: I'm back this morning.
[14:24] tonywebster: @Dwayne The AP sells licenses to images depicting human suffering all the time, but under an “editorial use only” license, which is restricted to “editorial purposes in connection with reporting” with a specific restriction on commercial use. That makes sense to me, as it furthers the AP's mission of expanding knowledge while paying the photographer for their time, gear, skill, and the risks they take. I've seen you defend photojournalism NFTs as cementing truth in the blockchain, but you could do that (e.g. by putting hashes or metadata in the blockchain) without turning the images into NFTs—privately traded commodities. How is this not just naked commercialization specifically against the AP's own rules?
[14:25] peterhoffman: Fwiw - I personally don't buy into the environmental criticism so much - I mean I understand it, but from what I understand w/ polygon it would make more sense to be criticizing the carbon footprint of AP staffers traveling etc. There is no perfect solution. So while I agree it's an issue I don't see it really as an effective critique of the technology because abstinence of ... other things would be more effective, and the more we transition to renewables the more it helps, including things like this.

I personally am grateful Dwayne has stepped in and recognized the issue - and think some time and space is warranted to see how AP pivots and handles this going forward. 

The idea of journalism on the blockchain for archival purposes is compelling to me - long term. It's overshadowed by the culture around NFT's right now, but I think is worth considering especially given the strength of certain propaganda machines at this exact point in time.
[14:43] Richard Lawler: It's worth noting that Polygon's claims of its carbon footprint have been disputed as being off by about 2,100x https://digiconomist.net/the-carbon-footprint-of-polygon/
Digiconomist
The Carbon Footprint of Polygon - Digiconomist
In recent weeks several organizations have started experimenting with non-fungible tokens (NFTs) on top of the Polygon network. Associated press announced it was launching an NFT marketplace on top of Polygon, while also Prada, Adidas and the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) launched their own NFT projects using Polygon. These decisions immediately fac...
Image
[14:48] peterhoffman: That's pretty troubling. I still don't see abstinence as the solution to this, though. Or rather - I don't see it as realistic - not nearly as feasible as pushing towards renewable and lower footprint tech long term. I don't think it makes a hypocrite out of its users, or not any more than so many other parts of daily life that don't get the same level of scrutiny. 
[15:00] Shakie: 100% agree and look forward to Dwayne attempting to spell that out for me as well... there are many ways to verify / cement work in on online space without directly commodifying it and while I cannot speak to the specificities of APs own rules, its immoral to say the least.
[15:02] isyourguy: hi dwayne, i've seen your threads and replies on twitter about this very topic back in january as well as your contributions here more recently. appreciate that you're taking the time to answer these questions and that you're likely very busy as a result.

are there technologies other than blockchain that you're looking at to supplement or remedy the things you've raised as important to the AP? i ask because from the reading myself and others have done into both the technology involved and the state of the ecosystem today, there are a lot of caveats around the somewhat vague claims that have been made so far.
[15:09] Dwayne: Here's the blow by blow. For the past month, since the project has been live, a team from different depts at AP has been managing it, led by me. Our goal is to serve the community of collectors of photojournalism with verified digital photojournalism, an addition to their non-digital collections. Each week we focus on the work of a photographer or a topic. We gather candidate photos and then spend normally 2-3 days discussing which we should select. We sleep on that decision and then prior to minting we make the final decision. Is it an important photo? Does it depict the best in photojournalism, is it too controversial for this purpose? Are clearances required? Do we have the photographer's permission? When the pics are chosen, we've been hosting a Twitter Space session for most drops so the photographer can explain the picture and the story behind it. We include audio of the photographer describing the image in case someone misses the Twitter call. We discuss how many editions and what is an appropriate price for each photo. Then we mint, watch the response from our community and add that learning to our thinking for the next drop. Revenue is split between the photographer, AP and the tech company that operates the marketplace.  I hope that helps.
[15:16] Dwayne: Hi Shakie and Tony. You're right that there are many technologies to store digital data on either servers or various clouds. When one technology falters, others pop up. The blockchain is one of them and the newest. Based on all currently available knowledge, I favor blockchain over the other methods because I've concluded that data and information has the best chance of surviving attack, corruption and censorship in a decentralized network.
[15:17] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Are you interested in a technical deconstruction of why this isn’t a good set of assumptions?
[15:17] Richard Lawler: Does your minting process encode the image on the blockchain itself?
[15:18] Dwayne: I'm open to all information.
[15:18] Apocryphalknight: You can use a decentralized network without sales. In what way does sales and revenue prevent censorship?
[15:18] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I started to write a reply to your earlier question but I think this puts a specific point on what I was getting around to
[15:20] Apocryphalknight: Ironically im only aware of this because of a pedophile who uses a decentralized network to archive his videos. If you would like a lead on an actual story that might help rebuild your brands credibility, end human suffering rather than monetize it, and give your staff something to do other than making bored apes human suffering edition, feel free to hit me up. 
[15:28] Dwayne: Will do. sounds interesting.
[15:31] <<<~~~~~~>>>: So - the thing to note about blockchain tech is you're relying on the continue existence of people minting the coins and participating in the system for the underlying infrastructure to continue to exist. Polygon is built on Ethereum, so without the continued existence of Ethereum, they can't continue to exist themselves. Polygon themselves only continues to exist as long as people are mining their tokens, which is the core conceit of decentralized systems - that people will always have a motive to keep participating, keep mining, etc. So Polygon is functionally laundering the environmental impact of Polygon. That's the first issue - what impacts Ethereum will impact Polygon. The second issue is if they were to migrate to a new underlying infrastructure, they have to make the decision of the  people who control the migration choose to re-mint all the tokens, contracts, etc (as an example of this, see the Ethereum hard fork from the 2016 DAO hack), so there's still a centralized control here that exists -  the thing about technical infrastructure is you can't give up ownership of it and then expect it to always act in the way you want it to. 

You give up a degree of control when you host something on a cloud provider (ie, you're not longer the hands in server rooms racking and stacking computers), they provide the technical substrate, but you still have ability to migrate, move, and deploy your systems wherever you want. When you mint something on the blockchain, you're giving up all of your control and technical ownership of the underlying systems and simply hoping that nothing goes wrong with the underlying system which (if it is truly decentralized) has no core group to hold it accountable to failures, assist with migrations, etc, or allows that group to still maintain control over the system via migrations, re-writing the core code, etc, so it's not actually decentralized at all. 
[15:34] <<<~~~~~~>>>: as an analogy, Blockchain forces you to use one kind of webserver to run your websites that are not interoperable with any other kinds of systems. The AP can always choose another blockchain provider, or choose all the blockchain providers, but if you have to invest in a massive amount of work to replicate your NFTs or your systems across all of the blockchains that exist, what value are those blockchains actually adding from a technical standpoint vs putting a source of record on your website that simply says "Hey, this (backer) of the the AP has offered their support to (this photo and this photojournalist)" and avoiding all  the complexity of NFTs?

Especially when you're choosing to pay people in crypto, which forces them to engage in the ecosystem to get paid, and forces them to try to figure out what the trustworthy mechanisms are for removal of their assets from the system?
[15:36] FishDog1: I think it would be far more prestigious to have your name and record on the website as well as opposed to just some blockchain no one is going to look at
[15:36] isyourguy: this in combination with the xooa terms of service is quite telling. no guarantees of authenticity, no guarantees that the item won't be subject to data loss, xooa can reclaim any assets they see fit which suggests the smart contracts are written in such a way as to enable them, or an attacker, to do that.
[15:37] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I mean, it means there's a lawyer somewhere in xooa who knows all of this is BS and is covering their ass appropriately such that the AP is unlikely to be attacked via novel legal attackes enabled by NFT minting adding confusion to the copyright / ownership space 
[15:39] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I think it is important to note that there's a marketing value to hopping on the NFT hype train, but I agree with you entirely. There's hundreds of blockchain / smart contract solutions that have already become digital backwaters and are worthless because their underlying adoption of blockchain tech didn't make it to viability.
[15:40] Apocryphalknight: Prestige is secondary to prevention of censorship and in concept thats a very noble goal, this is most likely the worst possible way to achieve that however
[15:40] FishDog1: i agree with both of you
[15:40] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I'll be more explicit and say overtly that blockchain in no way stops censorship, it just enables another layer of censors.
[15:42] Dwayne: Thanks for taking time to share that.
[15:42] <<<~~~~~~>>>: that layer of "censorship", in this case, the ability to control the content on the blockchain tech (ie, the DAO hack) is just distributed more broadly, and it turns out that given that HTTP clients and servers are pretty universal, blockchain offers nothing new to improve that distribution or make it more accessible. If you have blockchain access, you have HTTP access, and HTTP access is way easier / more scalable / freely available 
[15:42] <<<~~~~~~>>>: for those not familiar with the DAO hack: https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao#section-the-dao-hack 
Gemini
The DAO: What Was the DAO Hack? | Gemini
The DAO was a decentralized autonomous organization on the Ethereum blockchain that suffered a source code vulnerability now known as The DAO hack.

[15:43] <<<~~~~~~>>>: you're welcome - this space is incredibly opaque and I think it's really important for folks who work with / on these things share and try to educate
[15:44] <<<~~~~~~>>>: if there's anything that's still confusing or difficult to parse there, please let me know - the flaw is in the explaining, not the reader 🙂
[15:46] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I'll also say that as a photojournalist organization, the idea of adopting a system that relies on 51% consensus would make me quite ideologically uncomfortable - oftentimes the goal of photojournalism is to change that consensus, and allowing the enforcement at the "majority rules" over the systems I used would seem to be extremely ideologically opposed to the mission
[15:47] Dwayne: I certainly will. I've been working in Boston's tech community for the past few years and what I like most is the community's willingness to share ideas to help get around hurdles, because the same hurdles generally affect everyone. In the past year, I've seen the same sense of mission from most folks while also appreciating the wide spectrum of skeptics to believers and trying to learn from both.
[15:48] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I think the most important question to ask crypto believers is "how do you handle deletion"?
[15:49] Dwayne: There was an interesting project we participated in 3 or so years ago called Civil. The team there was attempting to create a journalism chain with a DAO governance. Back then, it was even more convoluted to set up a wallet or to actual execute governance so the project eventually closed.
[15:49] Dwayne: Do you mean token deletion?
[15:49] <<<~~~~~~>>>: no, I mean "removal of the concept"
[15:50] <<<~~~~~~>>>: like, if you have a gmail account, and you delete your gmail account via GDPR request, all of that data has to go away
[15:50] <<<~~~~~~>>>: there is no analogous functionality in cryptocurrency by design
[15:51] <<<~~~~~~>>>: it will never have that functionality
[15:51] <<<~~~~~~>>>: and in part, this is a reason why it is not trustworthy - it cannot support removal of misinformation, exploitative images, revenge porn, etc 
[15:52] <<<~~~~~~>>>: structurally, from a product design standpoint, the infrastructure that you build on when you adopt blockchain will not allow you to do those things, and that removes a massive stack of tools and infrastructure that all companies rely on regularly to both meet laws, protect sources, etc
[15:53] Dwayne: I agree with that side of the coin. For example, we are not publishing live news onchain for that very reason. We make mistakes.
[15:53] <<<~~~~~~>>>: this is also why the idea that the current systems are meaningfully decentralized is bunk - opensea is the centralized provider that controls most NFT distribution, and they commonly use the fact that they have the ability as a portal to change the blockchain information that passes through to add a layer of interpretation around stolen NFTs (ie, blocking them) 
15:55] baby: For the technical-minded and crypto-skeptical, I've saved a ton of useful resources related to the negative impacts of crypto, and underlying contradictions in the technology. This talk by David Rosenthal (an NVDA OG) is a pretty comprehensive walkthrough in all of the tech's deficiencies https://blog.dshr.org/2022/02/ee380-talk.html?m=1
EE380 Talk
I was asked at short notice to fill in for a speaker in Stanford's EE380 course who had to cancel. Below the fold is a hastily updated vers...
Image
[15:55] <<<~~~~~~>>>: so again, this comes back to - we've discussed a lot of downsides of blockchain, that decentralization means surrendering infrastructure control to 51% of the consensus havers in a chain, the opacity of continued existence of a specific blockchain implementation you chose, the centralized providers that manage most of the common usage on these platforms - NFTs have a hype cycle that's associated with them but what is the actual value to photojournalism and the AP's mission, given the limitations and surrender of control adopting the technology entails? 
[15:57] isyourguy: i suspect the xooa token revocation mechanism combined with them removing the image from their ipfs node goes some way to remedying this, but it's not perfect since anyone can pin it.... but even if they don't, that somewhat conflicts with it being decentralised and immutable.
[15:57] baby: He doesn't focus as heavily on the way that crypto can facilitate fraud, but he talks extensively on the direct and indirect environmental impacts, and pretty thoroughly debunks the "decentrality" of crypto
[15:57] Dwayne: Do you think it might serve as an effective DRM solution? We've been searching for such a thing for years.
[15:58] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Simple answer? No. DRM is a problem with access and replication, and the internet made access and replication easy. You can't put that dragon back in the bag 
[15:58] <<<~~~~~~>>>: DRM is fundamentally a social problem (inappropriate user of content), enabled by the free exchange and access of information
[15:58] Dwayne: Indeed. the digital content mistakes made in the mid-nineties continue to hurt to this day.
[15:59] <<<~~~~~~>>>: you can't restrict usage without restricting access, the only way it would work is if blockchains became the authoritative way to access any information, and you've just traded a much more free and open world for a much more constrained and controlled one
[15:59] isyourguy: one might argue that making high quality photos and video available on ipfs is heading in the other direction
[15:59] <<<~~~~~~>>>: plus there's nothing that stops someone with access to simply creating another blockchain unless you restrict all computer system creation, that's clearly absurd, etc
[16:00] Dwayne: What are your thoughts on the adoption by finance? We see networks like Pyth seeking to replicate traditional financial pricing awareness on chain.
[16:01] baby: I think that a blockchain is a solution looking for a problem
[16:01] <<<~~~~~~>>>: They have a direct financial driver to control those pipelines, because they're extremely profitable, and even if the pipelines themselves are not profitable, they can be used to pump and dump coin stocks for massive profit 
[16:01] baby: and thats not the correct way to engineer technology
[16:01] baby: "I love using linked lists, so I'm going to use them as my sole method of data storage"
[16:02] baby: "how can I apply this new linked list technology to every facet of the internet"
[16:02] Dwayne: Seems they also have an existential driver to move transactions on chain.
[16:02] <<<~~~~~~>>>: yup, the more things that are on chain, the more credibility they have as a platform and the more they can weaponize FOMO to drive growth
[16:03] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I missed out on a fortune because in the very early days of blockchain I went "This is a solution looking for a problem" and didn't burn some cycles minting bitcoin 😂
[16:03] Dwayne: So, what's the technology's future? Do you think there's no turning back?
[16:03] <<<~~~~~~>>>: didn't realize how valuable a distributed, nation-free currency would be for propping up north korea's cyber-infrastructure
[16:03] baby: lol dont worry the FOMO bites everyone
[16:03] <<<~~~~~~>>>: yeah I've lost every lottery I didn't participate in too 😂
[16:04] baby: lol
[16:04] Dwayne: Alas. I, too, shunned Bitcoin and my wife has not let me forget it.
[16:04] baby: if it makes you feel better, crypto produces far more losers than winners
[16:04] baby: because its invariably zero-sum
[16:04] baby: unless you start reading into Tether fraud, but that's a whole other behemoth
[16:05] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I mean, I sleep a little better knowing I haven't willingly profited directly from an ecosystem that has primarily created its value by undermining the society bonds I exist in
[16:05] isyourguy: i find the trick is to pick the numbers that they're going to draw that night. try not to pick the ones they don't draw, that's how they get you.
[16:05] binchlord: Also, the more the increasingly centralized mining groups and platforms make off of gas & other fees
[16:06] binchlord: They directly financially benefit from recruiting anyone and anything to the blockchain
[16:06] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I think this is really interesting and complicated - the idea of blockchain has reached a certain degree of social credibility by obfuscating the core capabilities of the platform and it does have an extremely high value in terms of a bunch of really nasty things (like money laundering, etc)
[16:06] baby: the "crypto" strategy is to doxx the lottery winner and then spearfish him to get his seed phrase
[16:07] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I don't think it's reasonable or possible to "stop" adoption, and the cycle from the flaws of the thing will actually kill the products is often extremely long
[16:07] baby:
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[16:08] <<<~~~~~~>>>: so I think we're in a really fascinating crossover point - where a technology has flaws that are extremely evident and obvious to people with technical expertise, and extremely not to those who it is marketed to, and there's this massive push and pull going on right now from folks who are idealistically dreaming about a future that is inspired by blockchain tech but absolutely not enabled by it
16:08] baby: I think that the last 20 years has led us to believe that technology will evolve endlessly, so people are eager to jump at the "next big thing"
[16:09] baby: and enjoy the silicon valley wave of the 80s-90s
[16:09] baby: so much so they're willing to dress up a pig
[16:09] baby: for young idealists in tech, I can hardly blame them. Have you seen the "high growth" startups out there right now?
[16:10] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I mean, also, people are looking for a way through an increasingly broken and harmful society with massive wealth transfer and the rest of it
[16:10] isyourguy: the heads of those two mining orgs and the ethereum core dev team have a stunning amount of control. that's what, less than 10 people right?
[16:10] Dwayne: Man, I could lift that quote word for word from 1995. Ur probably younger, but I remember the same discussions over websites, the www and internet.
[16:10] <<<~~~~~~>>>: and something that restores, at least for the American audience, the idea of the gold rush, american dream, exceptionalism, etc, taps into a very potent vein of social history
[16:11] <<<~~~~~~>>>: agreed - except all of those technologies actually did something new and transformative!
[16:11] <<<~~~~~~>>>: giving people universal, high speed access to other people via text and voice for basically commodity prices was a huge transformation
[16:11] baby: If you read the article I posted higher, the author discusses how a fraudulent transaction was actually STOPPED by the ethermine team
[16:11] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I mean, remember long distance phone bills? SMS charges?
[16:11] baby: so much for "decentralized"
[16:12] <<<~~~~~~>>>: the thing is that blockchain doesn't actually enable that sort of massive phase shift in availability of some kind of core service or technology
[16:12] baby: they saved millions of dollars by reaching out to the mining team and nixxing the block from the pool
[16:12] baby: which only worked bc ethereum is so damn slow
[16:12] <<<~~~~~~>>>: it claims it allows a transition in trust, but it doesn't - it just creates a new, much more immature pool of people you have to figure out how to trust, while also probably making those people rich
[16:13] isyourguy: oh yeah absolutely. they have an absurd amount of influence and control. it's not the first time they've done it and it won't be the last.
[16:13] <<<~~~~~~>>>: and like, shocker, that's a massive motivator to folks who might be in a position of financial instability
[16:13] baby: honestly. and fwiw I don't even see that as the biggest blemish for crypto
[16:14] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I mean, the original blockchain paper just elides this point entirely: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
[16:16] <<<~~~~~~>>>:
s. With the possibility of reversal, the need for trust spreads. Merchants must
be wary of their customers, hassling them for more information than they would otherwise need.
A certain percentage of fraud is accepted as unavoidable. These costs and payment uncertainties
can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments
over a communications channel without a trusted party.


The issue here that they focus on solving to isn't "Fraudulent transactions because someone sold you a bad product", it is "someone passed you counterfeit currency"
[16:16] baby: The relevant snippet, if you're interested
Image
[16:16] isyourguy: i've definitely already read it, but thanks anyway
[16:16] <<<~~~~~~>>>: but people think that if you can somehow make currency not counterfeit, you can trust the products you buy, and like...lol / lmao
[16:16] baby: Posting for posterity in the channel
[16:17] <<<~~~~~~>>>: and that core conceit passes through all of the downstream systems, because they're built bitcoin and all of the downstream blockchain systems it inspired on "what if you're paid in a bad currency", but a lot of people have unknowing extrapolated from "trustworthy currency" to "trustworthy product" 
[16:19] <<<~~~~~~>>>: and like sure you can spend a lot of time writing code and smart contracts and figuring out exactly how you re-bootstrap a chain of trust independent from the web, DNS, existing social / copyright / political / governance norms
[16:20] <<<~~~~~~>>>: and if you get any singular part of it wrong, it's gonna be weaponized and exploited immediately because there's a lot of revenue streams there...
[16:20] <<<~~~~~~>>>: or i can go "hmm was this posted by the official AP twitter, or the official AP website?" and know thanks to the things we've already agreed upon that it is AP content
[16:20] baby: ah yes. just write the code perfectly the first time. something every developer does.
[16:21] <<<~~~~~~>>>: doot doot doot, stairs in your house, doot doot doot
[16:22] <<<~~~~~~>>>: pour one out for the phone phreakers, etc
[16:24] Dwayne: There's a story of ill-will behind almost all development.
[16:25] Dwayne: Hat's off to those who are on the side of good in the arms race.
[16:27] isyourguy: hmm. that's a bit of an oversimplification.
[16:27] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I mean, Bitcoin fundamental started as a way to destabilize currencies
16:27] <<<~~~~~~>>>: A digital reimagining of the goldbug ideology
[16:27] isyourguy: right. there wasn't ill-will behind its development, the thing was developed to facilitate ill-will.
[16:28] Dwayne: yes, better said.
[16:29] <<<~~~~~~>>>: And it’s fascinating imo not because of the technical components of it but because it has ended up working to a degree - causing a form of social change via the broader concept of crypto, to the point that it has massively changed things - just unfortunately the big wins are: enabling drug trafficking, money laundering, nation state cyberweapons programs, and massively scaleable Ponzi schemes
[16:29] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Oh and a lot of global warming acceleration
[16:30] Dwayne: I've not documented all thinking behind the white paper, but I do believe that had the economic crisis of 2008 not happened, we'd probably not be having this conversation...at least not so soon.
[16:30] AManForAllSaisons: let's just take a step back and consider that the Associated Press, an American journalistic institution, is trying to go all in on crypto, the child sex abuse imagery & dark web drugs currency, and NFTs, the useless tulip bubble environmental disaster that, as a community shows little to no regard for the rights of creators.
[16:30] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Yeah I mean, you erode trust in the social contract and people will feel compelled to reinvent it with them on top 
[16:30] Dwayne: Income inequlity remains the driver, IMO.
[16:31] Dwayne: and the lack of prosecutions.
[16:32] isyourguy: don't forget evading online gambling legislation! that's the driving force behind all true cypherpunks
[16:32] baby: crypto enthusiasts (who clearly stand the most to gain) want crypto exchanges to gain the legitimacy of actual exchanges, but without the protections and regulation. An absurd percentage of crypto trading is wash traded, which is literally ILLEGAL elsewhere
[16:32] baby: saw this a while ago: 10% of buyer-seller pairs have the same trade volume as the remaining 90%
[16:32] baby: https://twitter.com/emollick/status/1465505077083389960

Ethan Mollick (@emollick)
NFT oligarchy? A study of 6.1M NFT trades finds a few folks at the center of the market
🐱 The top 10% of traders account for 85% of transactions & trade at least once 97% of all assets
🦍10% of buyer–seller pairs have the same volume as the remaining 90% https://t.co/V3vytqZZB5 https://t.co/IDr67zl7TI
Likes
3460
Retweets
1163


Twitter•30/11/2021
[16:32] baby: you can't believe the price of anything, because its all so easy to fabricate
[16:33] baby: honestly, if AP wanted their program to really take off, they should have paid someone to botnet it and trade their pics back and forth
[16:33] <<<~~~~~~>>>: One of the largest marketing / PR wins that tech ever got was reframing “regulatory evasion” as “disruption”
[16:34] Dwayne: lol. We actually did the opposite. We saw the volume of bots early on and immediately worked to keep them out of our community.
[16:35] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Keeping bots out requires the ability to restrict account creation, which is centralization
[16:35] <<<~~~~~~>>>: And there’s probably a theme here that you’re seeing - which is in order to make the product good you have to centralize capabilities
[16:36] Dwayne: Or, some old things in the quiver can still be helpful when needed.
[16:37] baby: which isn't to say centralization is bad! like honestly, the internet isn't bad the way it is. It's fast and powerful as heck. But if you add centralized SPOFs to your "decentralized" tech, you might as well just do it the old fashion way and enjoy all the benefits of a modern web stack
baby: where "old fashioned" is like a mongo/node/react stack
[16:38] AManForAllSaisons: the internet is, by necessity & design, fungible
[16:38] baby: not like a LAMP stack lol
[16:39] Dwayne: gack! from our industry's perspective, the internet has deeply dreadful shortcomings.
[16:39] AManForAllSaisons: I'm starting to get a bad feeling about you Dwayne
[16:40] Dwayne: Everyone, thanks for this conversation. I need to excuse myself for some other duties but will be back later this aft.
[16:40] baby: I like dwayne. this program is clearly his brainchild. I'm glad to see him defend it so fervently
[16:40] isyourguy: if you think web2 is flawed what until you see how broken web3 is
[16:42] AManForAllSaisons: How's the ethical guidelines document coming?
[16:42] isyourguy: i'm sure we've been keeping him from it
[16:42] AManForAllSaisons: lol, like he's writing it
[16:44] Dwayne: Here's the decision tree. Are the images meaningful? Are they wholly owned by AP or the photographer? Are clearances required?
[16:46] AManForAllSaisons: that's the tl;dr, you're going to actually have a finished document or at least a slide for us, right?
16:51] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I think it’s important here to not let novelty, especially novelty promised by those who stand to profit from adoption, distract from technical realities of what the products / infrastructure do 
[16:51] <<<~~~~~~>>>: And I’d be extremely interested in what the industry considers the shortcomings of the internet, when you have a chance to describe them
[16:53] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Because I think it’s easy to find people who will advocate for Blockchain based tech as the solution to problems because they stand to benefit from being the one who arbitrages the solutions
[16:53] Dwayne: Super short answer is digital theft of intellectual property.
[16:54] AManForAllSaisons: like this?
[16:54] <<<~~~~~~>>>: So if blockchain were to fix that it would have to become the only way to distribute intellectual property
[16:54] AManForAllSaisons: I pulled that off your twitter, how is the blockchain going to stop that? how are you going to advertise your images in a way that can't be right clicked and saved?
[16:54] <<<~~~~~~>>>: You would have to destroy the rest of the internet entirely
[16:55] AManForAllSaisons: ding ding ding, we have a winner
[16:55] <<<~~~~~~>>>: That seems absolutist and absurd but it’s the reality
[16:55] <<<~~~~~~>>>: And I think in an interesting way, cryptoboosters profit from folks believing that it couldn’t be that extreme of a bar 
[16:56] AManForAllSaisons: Dwayne wants a world without adblock, without archive.is, without a possibility that someone somewhere might wring a tiny bit of the AP's journalistic output out of them without paying for the privilege.
[16:56] isyourguy: you'd also need to fundamentally change the way computers work. if you no longer have the nft, you need to enforce deletion of the associated data.
[16:56] AManForAllSaisons: we should let Dwayne get back to drafting that ethical guidance document. it's due later today
[16:57] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Yeah this is an additional complexity which leads to the problems of “DRM requires a comprehensive control kit on every computer”
[16:58] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I don’t think forcing a timeline will get a better outcome here, it’s clear the AP overall dramatically misscoped the technical consequences of NFT adoption because of a lot of folks very motivated to misrepresent what it promised 
[16:58] isyourguy: sony rootkit but for every single organisation on the planet
[16:59] <<<~~~~~~>>>: And like, that sucks, but there’s a reason that every major tech company on the planet has an extremely highly paid security / privacy team to deal with these things and I don’t think the AP is playing in those hiring grounds, as much as I wish photojournalism as whole could
[17:00] Dwayne: Fucking right, Saison.
[17:01] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic and this is the dark side of that, when an entire community has been built around selling snake oil, and is boosted by tech journalists and the rest of it, it’s hard to see through to recognize that this side of it isn’t actually magic
[17:01] Dwayne: Sorry for my language, but I'll never give on someone stealing the work of our journalists or any reporter in any newspaper.
[17:02] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I mean, if that’s what you want, the fundamental control you’re asking for makes the AP the only available authority on the validity of all information
[17:02] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Including determinations around satire, fair use, etc
[17:03] <<<~~~~~~>>>: The ability to have taxonomical control that dictates “this is in scope for AP control” vs “this is out of scope for AP control” requires comprehensive control of all information
[17:04] <<<~~~~~~>>>: And that means controlling every compute device on the planet to validate those control frameworks are in place, and in doing so, be accountable for protecting, managing, identifying, and controlling everything else people do on those devices 
[17:06] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I’d suggest exploring, if you can, the product trade offs needed around child sexual abuse material in modern technology and product stacks because what you’re asking for is an evolution of that control specific to the AP
17:07] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Because if you did have that control you’d immediately have that problem space in your front yard, as well as immediately becoming the target for every nation state espionage program who wants access to a computer
[17:08] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Blockchain isn’t gonna do any of that, fwiw
[17:09] isyourguy: there's a system in place to test for that stuff right? or am i misremembering? sort of like a content id for csam?
[17:09] isyourguy: facebook and the like implement it
[17:10] <<<~~~~~~>>>: There’s a number of them, they all have very difficult / nuanced product trade offs and most assume that government actors are good faith participants in the system
[17:11] <<<~~~~~~>>>: There’s also zero visibility on their actual effectiveness
[17:11] <<<~~~~~~>>>: (Ie, people report on # of images identified, not # of children removed from situations where those photos were taken, # of abusers stopped, etc)
[17:12] <<<~~~~~~>>>: There’s also a number of images / hash matches on assorted blockchain implementations, including Bitcoin transaction records, iirc
[17:13] <<<~~~~~~>>>: Can’t delete it tho, lol
[17:15] isyourguy: well this conversation got so much more depressing than it already was
[17:15] doodlemancy: This explains nothing about how you decided THIS photo was appropriate.
[17:15] <<<~~~~~~>>>: a good thought exercise for Dwayne might be "There are a functionally infinite number of blockchains, what happens when you need to take a copyright enforcement action against sharing of your content on an arbitrary blockchain?"
[17:15] <<<~~~~~~>>>: this is why blockchain tech makes me so sad - maybe this is my generation's "the most brilliant minds are trying to figure out how to make stock transactions go faster", but like, if it solved these problems, oh god, I'd be there. It just doesn't. At all. In any way.
[17:16] <<<~~~~~~>>>: there is no technical system that can stand in for and meaningfully flatten social nuance and structure around things like ownership, enforcement actions, stopping abusers while not being exploitable by abusers themselves, etc
[17:16] isyourguy: this would be genuinely interesting, because the image isn't actually on chain. how do you take down an ipfs hash?
[17:17] <<<~~~~~~>>>: same way you go after bittorrent - attack the underlying providers of the systems such to make participation non-viable
[17:17] isyourguy: i think the answer is probably "you don't" and the enforcement is actually "well, nobody will want to buy a fake AP NFT"
[17:17] <<<~~~~~~>>>: basically, leverage the vIoLeNCe oF tHe sTAte
[17:18] <<<~~~~~~>>>: and if you can't do that, lol, lmao
[17:18] <<<~~~~~~>>>: internet is way better at sharing than restricting, by design
[17:19] doodlemancy: I see Dwayne's lumping AdBlock in with "stealing". It's stealing to protect my computer from malicious ads. Incredible new information lmao
[17:19] <<<~~~~~~>>>: information wants to be free, yo
[17:19] <<<~~~~~~>>>: thankfully the cost of exploitation is now high enough that it's unlikely malicious ads can compromise your device
[17:19] <<<~~~~~~>>>: your browser extensions, though
[17:22] isyourguy: ads that run cheeky little crypto miners are still a thing right?
[17:22] isyourguy: harder to get past discerning ad networks i suppose
[17:22] <<<~~~~~~>>>: yeah the issue here is that like..."society" wants some kind of free, unregulated market of sorts with a minimum of controls and prevention on exploiting existing revenue / social groups
[17:23] <<<~~~~~~>>>: but what that opens you up to is a complete lack of accountability around serving things like malicious ads as they get laundered through immensely complex advertising ecosystems
[17:23] <<<~~~~~~>>>: your alternative is "Apple / Chrome / Google / Facebook control the ecosystem end to end" which is bad for a different pile of reasons
[17:23] doodlemancy: For the record I also consider startling me out of my skin with random loud sounds "malicious"
[17:24] <<<~~~~~~>>>: blockchain sorta promises that you can have your cake and eat it too in terms of not having to reconcile that complexity - that you can have both decentralized lacks of accountability and centralized control situationally
[17:24] <<<~~~~~~>>>: and it turns out both are kinda mostly lies, but just true enough to be credible at first sniff 
[17:25] <<<~~~~~~>>>: agreed completely, computers should never speak without consent from their users 
[17:25] copypaste: Sorry, but you are delusional if you think that archives are stealing your work. The product that the AP sells is not, or should not fundamentally be, its archived news stories from 10 years ago. The main way you make money is on republication, not on public access. So even if somebody is able to get the high resolution photo, if they don't have the right to use it, then you're fine.
[17:25] copypaste: Meanwhile the right of people to look at an archive, which is an Independent Record of what you actually published, is way more important than you being able to sell a 10-year-old article for five cents
[17:27] doodlemancy: It's all decentralized and anonymous but it's also centralized and public. I think what happened here is its primary use was buying illicit stuff on the internet, and now  it's become a speculative market for neckties with thoughts. Everyone wants it to be everything it has been or that they think it will be 
[17:28] <<<~~~~~~>>>: note: I appreciate that this makes me sound like a madman but also, if we don't think in terms of what users do and do not consent to, you end up with blockchain type tech being able to completely paper over these very important implementation details - the ability to control the functionality of a computer and the balance of allowing users vs others to operate those controls is the sort of critical lynchpin of a lot of conversations around use of data and data access / sharing / duplication
[17:29] <<<~~~~~~>>>: this is the hype cycle that was born in the tech bubble, subverted by banks in the mortgage crisis, and has now been democratized to the people by blockchain. Isn't the future magical
[17:29] doodlemancy: Yes thanks I hate it LOL
[17:29] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I'm just old enough to have been promised flying cars. Goddamnit.
[17:29] Jackal: lol this is cringe, you have no idea how the internet works and should not be in charge of anything.
[17:30] doodlemancy: I would have crashed my flying car anyway. But this really isn't a thing I expected to have to fight as an artist online
[17:30] copypaste: I'm going to be sending this around to some reporters... Feel like we need to follow up here https://twitter.com/fr_brennan/status/1497262530112237569?t=XKwJTMpWCvvj3WDebSuE6A&s=19

Fredrick Brennan  (@fr_brennan)
This is insane

Remember the AP NFT thing?

My attention span is unfortunately limited, but the debate continued all night. @AMan4AllSaisons did a great job updating me this afternoon

The AP Director of Blockchain fundamentally "fucking" wants to see an internet without archives https://t.co/5z8ZRCcNn6





Twitter•Today at 17:29
[17:31] Apocryphalknight: AP needs a pretty big W to recover from that thread haha 😄
[17:31] copypaste: NFTs are anti-democratic and allow for a world where only the AP is the authority on what the AP published, which is very convenient for the AP, at least according to their blockchain director
[17:31] Jackal: If you don't want the world to steal your work stop using twitter, facebook, and the internet as a whole.
[17:31] <<<~~~~~~>>>: it's okay, elon's gonna fix this with tunnels
[17:32] isyourguy: ohh you fly the cars in the tunnels?
[17:32] Apocryphalknight: Cringe. Archival links hold journalists accountable to outside sources, ive seen journalists try to stealth rewrite articles and gaslight that it was never how it was originally written, only to be exposed by an archive link.
[17:32] <<<~~~~~~>>>: well first you remove all the air from them, and that's basically flight
[17:32] copypaste: By the way what @Dwayne  wants would make Wikipedia impossible, speaking as an editor. We rely on archival services because companies like the AP cannot keep their websites accessible and their older articles accessible for years.
[17:32] copypaste: We would have lost so much content and we would have lost so much history if he had gotten his way in the year 2000
[17:32] copypaste: Luckily he did not
[17:32] <<<~~~~~~>>>: say it with me: blockchain doesn't fix archival issues either
[17:32] doodlemancy: Theft is inevitable as an artist online. I've been attacked for taking a stance against all this crap by people telling me that my work wouldn't get stolen if it was on the blockchain, and it's like, sorry I'm not dumb enough to seek certainty in anything like that. You can't sell me this because of what you're trying to sell me is impossible. Ironically all they're doing is facilitating more theft
[17:33] <<<~~~~~~>>>: "the value of freeports is that they store art!"
[17:34] <<<~~~~~~>>>: anyways, I have to run, but thank you all for a wonderful conversation, and thank you to the folks who taught me some new things about photojournalism, archives, and things of that nature I hadn't been exposed to before!
[17:34] Apocryphalknight: Archive.is has been absolutely essential to my anti pedophile work as well. Without it i would not have a fraction of the evidence i do to forward to police investigators and journalists.
[17:35] doodlemancy: I think ultimately what these blockchain ding dongs are seeking is some sort of absolute certainty that isn't possible. Whether it's about ownership or rights or financial security. And I would also like to be certain about things but that's just not how the world works. They're selling a fantasy.
[17:36] <<<~~~~~~>>>: yeah, the fantasy of security always sells well, and blockchain has become the largest(?) socially available technical version of that
[17:37] doodlemancy: It's the modern version of blocking right click on your art site LMAO
[17:37] doodlemancy: Like to be fair it did take me a while to find the print screen button as a child but it happened
[17:37] copypaste: I want everybody to know that the AP is being more pearl clutchy about their OC than furries right now
[17:38] isyourguy: i might bounce too. doesn't seem to be any point sticking around on yet another web3 discord. thanks @<<<~~~~~~>>> for your insights and cool to see you going off on nfts @copypaste lol
[17:38] copypaste: In fact the furry is telling them they are wrong
[17:38] copypaste: Original content do not steal
[17:38] doodlemancy: LOL furries have much more right to be pearl clutchy about their OCS
[17:42] Apocryphalknight: Or an NFT by a photographer who probably no longer works for you and hasnt for 10 years
[17:43] doodlemancy: Still wondering how they're getting permission from that dead photographer whose work they're selling this week.
[17:43] doodlemancy: Like please do let me know how you're contacting the dead. I miss my grandma.
[17:43] Apocryphalknight: Omg archive is just a right click save for journalists haha.
[17:44] copypaste: All types of journalists rely on archives as well
[17:45] copypaste: This is supposed to be about helping journalism according to them
[17:45] copypaste: If the point is shutting off archives then all it will do is damage journalism and damage the public interest
[17:45] doodlemancy: Yep. It's completely antithetical to the entire idea of journalism
[17:46] doodlemancy: I agree that journalists should be paid fairly for their work. But we can probably do that without stomping on freedom of information.
[17:46] Apocryphalknight: The concern of people against archives is companies and people that practice journalism, not journalism itself
[17:47] doodlemancy: Also... if your goal is getting journalists paid... what good is it to put information behind paywalls, and nickel and dime them for trying to access it?
[17:47] copypaste: That helps get Dwayne paid
[17:47] copypaste: Doesn't really tend to help the journalist who quit 5 years ago
[17:48] doodlemancy: It's like if I had to pay a dollar to turn on my graphics tablet every day lmao
[17:49] doodlemancy: Anyway it checks out that someone who fell for the crypto scam would also believe all of these totally ridiculous things about how information should work, I guess. I've noticed that in general they have a really... fragile grasp of things like copyright
[17:50] db: wasoup yall. looking to buy an nft of fleeing migrants or a guy who got his legs blown off by an ied (.00367998 eth max)
[17:50] doodlemancy: you've come to the right place
[17:51] doodlemancy: we have a two-for-one deal on photos of the aftermath of a drone strike as well
[17:53] db: just flipped the pic of a dead syrian child on the beach and bought an ape wearing stunner shades wagmi
[17:53] doodlemancy: imagine making the migrants in the boat your hexagon pfp on twitter though, lmao.
[17:54] copypaste: Sorry I already bought it but I lost the key :-(
[17:54] copypaste: And since nobody can ever reclaim it that means that that nft is lost forever
[17:54] doodlemancy: No but honestly, the night before this went down, I saw this:
https://twitter.com/nft_designs/status/1496217918341799937

NFT DESIGNS (@nft_designs)
Putin Ape, #PutinsWar
Due to #Russia vs #Ukraine Conflict decided to create #NFT Please say NO to war and Buy NFT
Link:
https://t.co/w1Bca6Rx4r

#UkraineRussiaCrisis
#RussiaUkraine #UkraineConflict https://t.co/VUBrLrlzYP


Twitter•22/02/2022
[17:54] doodlemancy: and I was like good fucking god that's ridiculous, that's so insensitive, that's just abhorrent
[17:54] doodlemancy: and then the next day the AP is doing the SAME SHIT LMAO
[17:55] copypaste: And then the AP of all people top it
[17:55] copypaste: And then their director lets you know that actually he hates the open internet and the whole idea of archival
[17:55] doodlemancy: This is what you look like, Dwayne. For the record. You look exactly like this fucking ghoul.
[17:55] copypaste: Burn down the libraries
[17:55] copypaste: Destroy Wikipedia
[17:55] copypaste: #Disastercapitalism4all
[17:57] doodlemancy: They're not burning down the library, they're just putting the books in the Disney Vault for a while until they want to sell them again :)
[17:58] copypaste: I feel like I'm about to get banned so I will say Fred will slow down on the strawmanning please don't ban him he's just concerned he's a good boy just misunderstood 😇
Image
[17:59] Apocryphalknight: Can i get an nft of the kiev airport on fire? 🔥
[18:00] doodlemancy: Honestly I feel like people said all of the reasonable factual things already anyway
[18:00] doodlemancy: Which unfortunately does not help when you're talking to people who have been successfully sold on a scam
[18:01] doodlemancy: My guess is this will be written off as a mistake and they're gonna have to find out over time that like, no, actually, people hate you the entire time you're selling things as NFTs. Not just when you sell a really bad one.
[18:04] doodlemancy: I need to go make some real money that I can use to purchase goods and services, but I wish Dwayne the best of luck in continuing to make an absolute clown out of himself and of a trusted news organization by falling for... I was going to say this decade's most transparent scam but I forget exactly when Juicero came out.

18:16] AManForAllSaisons:
[18:16] AManForAllSaisons: Dwayne on his break. Printers after all are the original copyright infringment devices.
[18:17] doodlemancy: DON'T COPY THAT FLOPPY
[18:20] copypaste: Furries were actually the ideal market for NFT's which is crazy. We're the only ones that care about like...who owns art or a character, and they could have, if they worked with us, and not allowed art theft like crazy, maybe even found some acceptance... Instead they decided to completely alienate us to the point that almost none of the furry artists I know will draw art for an NFT, and then after alienating us they decide to alienate the rest of the internet by threatening archives
[18:21] copypaste: Like what even are you doing guys
[18:21] Apocryphalknight: Hey dont leave out weebs, we care about who owns what character or what art piece too, and holey moley the nft community went ham on art theft of anime artists, like wow
[18:22] Apocryphalknight: Literal armies of bots scraping deviantart to automatically make nfts
[18:23] Apocryphalknight: Most anime style artists wont touch nfts with a 60 ft pole, have no nft clauses in their commission instructions now
[18:23] Apocryphalknight: Think about that. The artists who will draw your inflation jelly donut tf art still wont mess with nfts
[18:24] AManForAllSaisons: quick survey: anybody see anything that approaches "ethics" here? anything that would have prevented migrant boat nft?
[18:24] copypaste: No.
[18:25] AManForAllSaisons: 1: Meaningful: this is just a rebranding of "we use the broader AP 'storytelling' guidelines
[18:25] AManForAllSaisons: 2. Wholly owned by AP? This is just legal CYA. And a tautology, because they're talking about making NFTs of their images in the first place
[18:25] gus: The fact that any of this happened is proof that AP’s integrity has a price tag
[18:26] gus: “non profit”
[18:26] AManForAllSaisons: 3: Clearances. From whom? On what grounds? How do you know what requires clearance, and how is it determined to grant clearance.
[18:26] AManForAllSaisons:
[18:26] AManForAllSaisons: 4: Where's the ethics?
[18:27] gus: Journalists getting into this scam should self reflect on whether or not they’re actually good at checking their sources
[18:28] AManForAllSaisons: That's a tech bros' cheat cheat for who he needs to email before signing off on something
[18:28] AManForAllSaisons: and is just "we have a conversation with multiple people in the room", but with extra steps
[18:29] copypaste: It's pretty amazing that I interpreted it right that they were actually going to post it today. But guess what I still get to use this image
Image
[18:29] copypaste: Different context this time, he's waiting for @Dwayne to come off his lunch break and explain why he hates archives
[18:29] copypaste: Even when you think you won you lose~~~~
[18:33] gus: This pyramid scheme poisons peoples minds. It convinces them of its ubiquity and utility. It’s such a shiny new tool that of course it’s a positive however it’s used.
[18:33] gus: Excited for the decapitation NFT next!!
[18:34] Apocryphalknight: I feel like thats still not the rock bottom of nft use cases
[18:35] gus: We’ll get there 😌
[18:35] AManForAllSaisons: so here's a thought experiment. maybe Dwayne can apply his new flowchart to it and let us know.
[18:36] AManForAllSaisons: This pic is from the Guardian. Let's pretend it was the AP.
Image
[18:36] AManForAllSaisons: Dwayne can now see, with hindsight and a lot of drama, that refugee boat nft was a bad idea. Maybe they'll avoid glaring gaffes like that going forward.
[18:37] AManForAllSaisons: But take an image like this one. Is it ethical to turn what is admittedly a brilliant photo with a lot of historical and social value to it, into a cheap virtual baseball card to be swapped around?
[18:37] AManForAllSaisons: Does the context of who Aaron was and what he believed in matter?
[18:37] AManForAllSaisons: Does the events that lead up to his death matter in that conversation?
[18:38] Apocryphalknight: I mean, i just linked him a horror story of crypto use by a very sick individual documented in large part by archives, its possible he's reevaluating his entire life right now
[18:38] AManForAllSaisons: Could you turn the image of an anti-crypto campaigner into an NFT? Does the position and principles of the subject matter?
[18:38] AManForAllSaisons: are any of these questions that would occur to the people in the room with Dwayne?
[18:39] Apocryphalknight: If dwayne comes back pro archive and gets that story published I'd let him have a big W
[18:40] Apocryphalknight: But I'm probably being naively optimistic
[18:41] jesopo: i guess the problem is NFT people subscribe to scarcity being a sustainable model
[18:42] AManForAllSaisons: ...s/scarcity/artificial scarcity
[18:42] jesopo: scarcity is how you make profit in the current world but that's not a good thing and we don't need to reproduce it on the internet
[18:43] AManForAllSaisons: I see @Julia | AP is checking in
[18:43] AManForAllSaisons: waves
[18:43] AManForAllSaisons: and she's gone
[18:48] jesopo: did u hear that tay zonday is in to NFTs
[18:48] jesopo: im going to scream if rick astley ends up doing NFTs. i can't have my teenagehood ruined like that
[18:49] copypaste: You guys would not believe how many people try to get me to get into NFTs.
[18:49] copypaste: I have been offered so far tens of thousands of dollars all total in rejected proposals. 
[18:50] copypaste: There is intense campaigning against anyone that is even slightly well known...
[18:50] copypaste: Really doesn't matter how long ago they were an artist or anything. Like that name recognition is just catnip.
[18:51] copypaste: ((The reason I know the dollar amount is because I play along until they tell me so I can laugh and then say no))
[18:52] gus: Any journalist here cover the dot com bubble or beanie babies?
[18:52] AManForAllSaisons: Dwayne lived through the dot com bubble and dabbled in web apps
[18:53] jesopo: i think generally computers advanced far faster than wider society could keep up with and that meant the few that understood it could totally pull one over on people that didn't
[18:54] jesopo: similarly i dont think Google's privacy invasion would be tolerated if people knew how bad it was before it got so embedded in the world
[18:54] AManForAllSaisons: In a way I feel sorry for a lot of (especially older) artists & musicians these days... their manager or somebody who is decades younger than them comes to them and pitches NFTs and they don't understand the tech
[18:54] AManForAllSaisons: or the criticisms. it's a digital computer thing, they're all the rage, sure, why not make some money
[18:55] AManForAllSaisons: and then they see the backlash.
[18:55] AManForAllSaisons: not artists like Damien Hirst or Anish Kapoor though, f them.
[18:56] jesopo: have you noticed that one of the most used invite links for this server was created by "SirDankalot"
[18:57] jesopo: i fear AP as a whole didn't give anywhere near enough oversight on this project and are going to suffer serious reputation hits for it
[19:01] Apocryphalknight:
[19:01] Apocryphalknight: Was this one big psyop from a scotsman?
[19:02] AManForAllSaisons: @jesopo, yeah, it's the one that is linked on the offical AP site
[19:02] gus: They’ve left this chat already. Off somewhere to their echo chamber, huffing their farts
[19:03] AManForAllSaisons: which is how I got here
[19:07] AManForAllSaisons: getting an invalid invite error now from the Discord link at https://apmarket.xooa.com/
[19:07] Apocryphalknight:
Image
Image
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[19:07] Apocryphalknight: >$2000 jpeg
[19:08] Apocryphalknight: Also not sure if this was a troll or not, was Julia reallt considering minting photos from Ukraine??
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[19:09] AManForAllSaisons: when is phase 3 scheduled for?
[19:09] AManForAllSaisons: charitable reading would be that she just blew him off with "check the roadmap" to avoid it
[19:10] Tacomesa: Wait you pay 2k for the NFT, and you only get personal use? lolol
[19:10] AManForAllSaisons: but also, who knows
[19:10] Apocryphalknight: My friends taking photos of the smoke from kievs shelled out airport hoping their apartments arent next:
Julia: lets mint that! 💸
[19:10] AManForAllSaisons: I did ask whether a dead ukranian child nft was in bounds last night
[19:10] AManForAllSaisons: the closest thing I got to a denial was Dwayne saying "no gore", IIRC.
[19:11] Apocryphalknight: So the dead migrant child on the beach okay? His guts arent spilling out
[19:11] Apocryphalknight: Or an epstien island survivor photo?
[19:11] AManForAllSaisons: that would be up to the multiple people in the room
[19:11] AManForAllSaisons: and dwayne's new flowchart.
[19:12] AManForAllSaisons: "Here's the decision tree. Are the images meaningful? Are they wholly owned by AP or the photographer? Are clearances required?"
19:23] doodlemancy: I ABSOLUTELY believe you, I'm a nobody artist and I get that crap in my DMs too, which is like... LOL. Do you know who I am? (You don't) (You probably didn't even look at my art or my follower count) (You just need as many people as possible with "artist" in their bio to buy into this so you can cash out someday)
[19:25] Apocryphalknight: Links to art plz? :3
[19:26] doodlemancy: https://doodlemancy.carrd.co/ here u gooooo
[19:31] jesopo: i feel like we've gentrified this NFT discord in to an anti NFT discord
[19:32] AManForAllSaisons: apes quiet. apes sad
[19:34] Apocryphalknight: Malon with sword 👑 🙏
[19:35] Apocryphalknight:
[19:35] Apocryphalknight: You got any makotos?
[19:42] copypaste: @doodlemancy wouldn't it be funny if I commissioned you in here so that we could turn the NFT discord into just a normal furry art commission group lol
[19:42] doodlemancy: LMAOOO i can't take comms rn but it would. be pretty funny.
[19:42] copypaste: No pressure, but if you are open I will 😂😂 your choice of pose, you can even make it AP related
[19:43] copypaste: Okay. I do think that would be pretty funny. Generally open offer ;-)
[19:43] doodlemancy: which Makoto? Kusanagi? Kino? man i gotta draw both of them
[19:43] AManForAllSaisons: lmfao
[19:44] AManForAllSaisons: this is the best
[19:44] doodlemancy: tbh whenever some company announces NFTs it would be cool if we just turned their tweet thread into an art share
[19:45] doodlemancy: we could finally turn something crypto bros do into a valuable service
[19:47] AManForAllSaisons: hey @Xooa Wright & @Xooa Zach, just wanted to say a couple quick things. First of all, while I hate your entire business model, respect to you both for letting the AP take the heat here, they deserve it, they're the journalists, you're just some guys.
[19:47] AManForAllSaisons: Second, the internet is saying the discord invite on your https://apmarket.xooa.com/ page has expired, could you maybe fix that?
[19:50] doodlemancy: yeah the one thing i'm glad about here is getting to see the person responsible for this blunder actually have to contend with criticism
[19:51] doodlemancy: too many people at too many companies get to fuck up with no consequences
[19:56] AManForAllSaisons: agreed, though I'd caution that the AP seems quite invested in this, perhaps more than they are in Dwayne as Director of Blockchain & Data.
[19:56] doodlemancy: yeah i think there's a sunk cost fallacy thing going on here, for sure
[19:57] doodlemancy: same as with Kickstarter, they got sold on something and they're in too deep to want to change course
[19:58] doodlemancy: even though it's like very obviously poison
[19:58] AManForAllSaisons: also, that reminds me of another point I've been mulling over. There are some old archival photos up for sale. I'd be willing to bet that the AP is planning to monetise an enormous chunk of their archives that aren't available to the average person.
[19:58] <<<~~~~~~>>>: the kickstarter interview is amazing 
[19:58] doodlemancy: THAT THING IS INCREDIBLE i've been shoving it in the face of anyone who will look
[19:58] <<<~~~~~~>>>: ( https://www.comicsbeat.com/kickstarter-blockchain-controversy-interview/ )
The Beat
Beat Staff
Kickstarter exec on blockchain backlash: "We've learned a hell of a...
Kickstarter COO Sean Leow talks about why they are looking at moving to the blockchain, and addresses creator backlash.

[19:59] AManForAllSaisons: which means that if this succeeds, the AP would be essentially closing off an entire historical archive into a system that isn't truly built with longevity or public historic access in mind
[19:59] doodlemancy: me after shooting myself in the foot: i've learned a hell of a lot. thinking i could maybe plug this gushing wound with another bullet if i aimed reeeeeeeeeeeeeal good.
[19:59] <<<~~~~~~>>>: I just wish the interviewer had been fast enough on their feet to ask him "but wait, can you explain how Blockchain is / isn't related to Open Source?"
[19:59] Apocryphalknight: Seconding this but weeb commission discord haha
[20:00] Apocryphalknight: Kino
[20:00] <<<~~~~~~>>>:
I’m not super familiar with how governance is done in the open-source world, but our understanding is that that is done more effectively with blockchain then with open-source.
 like, lmao
[20:01] Apocryphalknight: I will gove credit to that, youve been good sports. I would genuinly give dwayne all yhe Ws if AP covers what i sent him, no matter how much i think nfts are dumb.
[20:01] doodlemancy: i have ONE https://doodlemancy.tumblr.com/post/93332366142/back-bows-are-cute-ok and it's ancient, i gotta draw all the senshi this year lol
[20:02] doodlemancy: idk if they're being good sports or just hoping we'll get bored and leave tbh
[20:02] doodlemancy: that's been Patreon's strategy re: their flirtations with crypto
[20:03] AManForAllSaisons: if they think we're going to get bored they haven't been paying attention to twitter, to be perfectly honest
[20:03] doodlemancy: so far i have not seen people get tired of yelling at companies that do NFT shit
[20:03] doodlemancy: abandon them when they seem to be lost, yes, but every time a new one pops up there's this giant wave of backlash and it's very heartening lol
[20:04] AManForAllSaisons: not to be glib, but we protect us
[20:04] doodlemancy: oh yeah. creatives show up for this
[20:04] doodlemancy: it's honestly astounding that companies like Kickstarter and Gumroad have failed to read the room
[20:05] copypaste: You know what annoys me the most about the situation? That @Dwayne  just won't apologize for threatening legitimate archival because he just thinks he's right and so he's just waiting for us to get bored and basically ceding this server to us but taking down the link
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[20:05] copypaste: Don't let anymore of them in, stay silent, wait until they get bored, keep all your same shitty beliefs that are the root cause of the reason you went so horribly viral
[20:06] AManForAllSaisons: shout out to the covert journalists in the discord.
[20:06] doodlemancy: like lmao i don't really plan to stick around but whatever they do-- they're just gonna keep finding out that people hate this
[20:07] AManForAllSaisons: hard to promote an NFT without a public discord.
[20:07] AManForAllSaisons: hard to tweet about your NFTs when people can right click
[20:07] copypaste: (decided to post nyom shark girl instead in solidarity with all of the weeaboos in this chat lol, I'm clearly outnumbered)
[20:07] Apocryphalknight: Haha, become chumbud
[20:07] Apocryphalknight: