QGIS-Certification-Meeting-12Feb2014

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timlinux	Hi all
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timlinux	he everyone
hi
we will wait 10 more minutes
pcav	ok
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15∶59
timlinux	everyone ready
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timlinux	?
pcav: can you paste the wiki page you referenced in the email?
the link I mean
Jonathan_M	https://hub.qgis.org/wiki/17/Certification - was it that one?
(I happen to have it open)
pcav	arrived too late ;)
thanks jonathan
Jonathan_M	Welcome. :)
pcav	I think we are waiting for some more participants, right?
timlinux	Hi Jonathan_Myes that one
I am not sure who is still to come - I have only 1 hour
can I first propose a meeting format?
I want to suggest that rather than diving into the details of the Certification programme
we rather try to establish roles and tasks and deadlines
and then ask peopel to go away and come back with something
We have had already many long dicussions on certification but the achievements / action taken has been quite limited
we have the training manual and the wiki page and some ideas
and some guidelines e.g. Vincent's ideas on the mailing list
So I was going to propose that we use this meeting to establish rolls and coopt volunteers into them
e,g.:
* Someone to indentify and deploy a certification software platform (e.g. tao-testing)
* Someone to establish a fee structure
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timlinux	* Someone to establish the testing metrics (formulate a list of questions for the examinations)
* Someone to establish the certificate issuing system
* Someone to identify a system for certified trainer / trainer shadowing etc
* Someone to ensure that we have training resources to go with our curriculum
etc.
Any thoughts?
pcav	+1
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pcav	spiltting tasks in a general framework is the way to go IMHO
timlinux	aneumann: hi  - I put the logs so far in this gist: https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a
I will try to keep it updated
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timlinux	Everyone else is very silent so either I scared them away with words like 'commit to responsibility' or they love they idea so much they are speechless :-)
pcav	:)
timlinux	Our internal deadline is to have our cert programme up and running by May for the User Conf so we can announce it with a splash there
it gives us a very short time to achieve something
Maybe we can go around the list of people present and ask what each person can commit to?
Jonathan_M	Seems ambitious. The wiki page has a timeline that seems longer; they appear to have given up at item 3. :-)
timlinux	yeah the wiki page is also largely unmaintainted
and yes it is ambitious
I think it is fine to start with the smallest viable system we can
and everything is unfunded so that makes it doubly hard
the idea is that it should a) generate revenue for QGIS and b) add credibility to our project and practitioners using QGIS
alexbruy: are you able to pitch in work towards the programme, and if so what? Perhaps a localisation system might be useful
pcav	timlinux: I think people are reluctant to invest time and effort in this
as they feel the advantages will go to those who sit and wait
don't you think so?
gioman	I'm not
alexbruy	timlinux: well, I can help with developing tests and training resources. and also with localization (ru and ua)
aneumann	I can help adding tests and review existing tests
but on a limited base
have other occupations as well ;-)
timlinux	hehe - we are all in the same boat here
pcav	*we* are on this boat ;)
alexbruy	also I have some connections with peoples from universisites, maybe I will be able to engage them into process
timlinux	aneumann: maybe we should put in our budget plans seed funding to establish the programme
pcav	orers are out on the shore
timlinux	because if this is going to work it will take serious committment
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timlinux	how about you Cracert_?
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timlinux	duiv: ?
Cracert	Hello
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timlinux	Cracert: we are going round the room seeing what each person is able to commit to
and you are in the spotlight :-)
duiv	I'm interested, but have not the intention to invest much time in it to be honest
Cracert	sorry for problem, but I coudn't get into chat
timlinux	no problem
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timlinux	did you miss the backlog of conversation?
Cracert	my main concern is: who is main target of certification?
yes, I don't have this log
timlinux	https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a <-- logs
Cracert	target 1: users (many of them)
target 2: advanced users, trainers
Jonathan_M	Cracert: https://hub.qgis.org/wiki/17/Certification has a number of options from when previously discussed it seems.
Cracert	thank you timlinux
timlinux	Cracert: rather than discussing specifics I would prefer that we nominate someone to go offline and tackle each task
Ie if that is a concern, lets identify someone to go and investigate who our target is / should be and compile it into our plans
Cracert	ok
timlinux	because otherwise in this meeting we will get lost in microscopic details
and what we need is a macro plan: volunteers who can commit to dealing with specific aspects of the programme
Cracert	I'm ready to work on that topic, but with very limited time resources for next 3-4 weeks
timlinux	thats ok we are all in the same position - just take on as big a committment as you think you can manage - it will help us move forward
ginetto: is there something you are willing to pitch in with to help?
Cracert: == robert right?
ginetto	I'm not experienced in certification... due to my pyqgis traings, I'm whatching what will be the direction of this certification.
Cracert	yes Robert from Poland 
Jonathan_M	I'm in a similar boat to ginetto.
timlinux	How about looking into a curriculum for certifying QGIS plugin devs?
btw none of us are experienced in certification :-)
and we do have some collaborators who are
from tertiary education
ginetto	I've difficulties to focus what would be a complete certification for programming skills in pyqgis
timlinux	ginetto: we want to start small so something that shows a person is able to create e.g. a plugin and do core tasks - cookbook would be a good basis to use
ginetto	In my experience there are at least two level of students interested in qgis plougin
timlinux	again the point of this meeting is more to try get people to identify task that need to happen so that we can get the cert programme going
ginetto	but... are we following an agenda? I don't want to start to talk about it too early
timlinux	so lets not go into the details - rather can I ask you to just collate your thoughts onto the wiki pagehttps://hub.qgis.org/projects/17/wiki/Certification
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timlinux	ginetto: it is only a short (1 hour) meeting to try to bootstrap the certifiation programme
ginetto	timlinux, ok
timlinux	we can hold more, longer, regular meetings to go into details
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timlinux	right now the object is just to find a core of people willing to commit to making it happen
vpicavet	Hi all, managed to connect. Is there a backlog of the beginning of the meeting somewhere ?
pcav	timlinux: my point is: people may be available
but probably will not move unless they see a practical advantage
timlinux	https://gist.github.com/timlinux/ecb9210490959aa2000a , vpicavet: 
ginetto	timlinux, I'm available to share my experience on "kind of strudents" I encoutered
timlinux	sure the assumption is that all those here are here because there is a practical advantage - they want to make a business from training and certifying people
Cracert	maybe we should start filling up "Reflexions and questions" on wiki?
pcav	timlinux: yes, but setting up the programme is a considerable work
even if slit
split
timlinux	Cracert: yes I am adding
pcav	so either we can secure funding for it
or those who enroll have to get some bonus
IMHO
Cracert	I mean - to let people fill it within 1-2 weeks with ideas and declarations of help
timlinux	Cracert: ok that we can do
Cracert	or maybe find some more user friendly place to do it
timlinux	pcav: yes I agree we shoud try to get some funding in place
Cracert	github issues?
timlinux	also the tertiary education folks will throw time and money into it more easily than 'commercial' folks
Cracert: can you set something up
and then we can send to the list asking people to add themselves
org I can make a google form
or I can make a form I meant
Cracert	I'm not familiar with google forms but can do it
timlinux	ok cool
maybe we can jsut list here what questions to aks and I do it
(my english is probably going to be better understood :-P )
Cracert	you are right
timlinux	Ok so what do we want to ask? Brain dump please everyone!
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timlinux	Name
Email
Focus area
Available time
Preferred day for meetings
Special skills
alexbruy	maybe also ideas about process/platform/etc?
timlinux	yes good
Cracert	Languages
alexbruy	expectations from programme?
Cracert	... human
timlinux	good
How many questions you can volunteer to formulate
Which topic you will make questions on
I think a large part of the work is just to create a pool of questions
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timlinux	if each person in this chat room make say 10 questions
we would have a good starting basis
Cracert	and setup some infrastructure to run it
timlinux	y
Jonathan_M	Where you come from: Academia/commercial/personal/other?
timlinux	Cracert: I set up certification.kartoza.com
Jonathan_M: good will add it
vpicavet	could we have certification.qgis.org instead ?
timlinux	Cracert: it is a tao-testing instance
vpicavet: of course - that is just a sandbox
vpicavet	ok
i'd rather have a sandbox on qgis.org too (even if it's a transparent redirect to somewhere else)
timlinux	ok duiv can you forward that domain to my server?
duiv	timlinux: a normal A record?
if you give me an IP
timlinux	78.46.89.12 <-- yes to that
vpicavet: more the point I wanted to make is that we need peopel to log in there and famililarise themselves with it and make a determination "can we use this as our cert platform?"
or is there something better
anyone who wants an admin account there just contact me
Cracert	"How many questions you can volunteer to formulate" is too general question for me
timlinux	ok
Cracert	it depends on type of questions
we planned to make rather small tasks than questions
timlinux	Cracert: sure again proably it is good to have a look at tao-testing to understand the process
Cracert	ok
timlinux	small tasks are fine
duiv	http://certification.qgis.org/ A record added
timlinux	but the answer must be something definitive
e.g. a multiple choice
or type in a number representing the result of your analysis etc
Jonathan_M	So "Closed" questions.
timlinux	we cannot support qualatitive questions on something like tao
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timlinux	the university folks we had discussions with use persnal evaluations and portfolios to evaluate students
but that will never work for us unless we are paying people to mark student work
Jonathan_M: yeah closed questions
Jonathan_M	Although the problem with closed questions is the answers will end up online. Then it becomes a matter of just googling them.
Cracert	Jonathan_M: good point
timlinux	thats why we want to have a largish pool of questions
ginetto	stackexchange.com has a good system to manage peer evaluation... ok it's not certification, but it works
timlinux	and randomise them
Jonathan_M	They'll still end up online.
timlinux	yup
they did when I did my MSCE etc
but the certification environment must be controlled then
so that the user cannot e.g. use a crib sheet
Jonathan_M	Yep. Do-able.
timlinux	and we need to certify certification centers
again something someone could take on and come up with a proposed workflow
Jonathan_M	Maybe just certify the examiners. Why certify centres? Except as places to examine the examiners I guess.
Yup.
Cracert	all such point we should put in one place
timlinux	yeah either one
yup
Cracert	and later decide - by PSC voting?
pcav	agreed timlinux, better certify examiners and trainers than certres
Jonathan_M	If you can't trust the Certified Trainer after all, then the process went a bit wrong... :-)
Cracert	I agree too - examiners based
timlinux	ok - so I will go and make a form asking all certification participants to register their ability to contribute there
and then communally we can formulate a detaild plan of action
I think we only need to ask the PSC to vote on the programme as a whole
or better to ask them to give a mandate to someone to 'setup and run the certification programme' and that person can go back to them when they think things need apprroval
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timlinux	vpicavet: hehe if you go to http://certification.qgis.org it just redirects to my domain - which is probably even worse
I will have to look into how to make it not do that
vpicavet	yep
timlinux	I was trying to avoid spending large amounts of time on it until we agree that t is the platform we use
or agree that we want to use something else
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micha_silver	General question: Will Examiners be expected to pay a fee for becoming a certified trainer?
timlinux	yes - the intention is that all certificates issued will cost something
we need someone to go off and think about a suitable pricing structure
vpicavet	that was my next question
Jonathan_M	Another one: How long do we anticipate it would take to train someone to the requisite level to get a regular certificate? 1 day?
timlinux	and we will have a 'grandfather clause' to create the first group of certified peopel
micha_silver	Good, to a certifying center can be a profitable business
vpicavet	would be interesting to check others certification prices
timlinux	yes
QGIS would take a fee and the certifier woould take a fee
so it will provide an economic platform
and we as a project will benefit by ensuring that training is to a certain standard
which means less misinformed users etc 
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Jonathan_M	timlinux:  - not neceessarily. Only the trained ones will be less misinformed.
timlinux	heh yeah
Jonathan_M	And to get training will require either/or commitment/money
timlinux	yes
Cracert	I'm glad we come back to our initial idea of more human-based certification :)
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Cracert	supported by machies
machines
micha_silver	and by grandfathers...
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Cracert	certification should be coupled with LTR schedule
so the time is perfect
Jonathan_M	Some interesting thoughts on Open Source certifications here: http://www.krisbuytaert.be/blog/open-source-certification-friend-or-foe and in comments
timlinux	Cracert: yes agreed - certs should be against ltr