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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!
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Wayland.md

Think twice before abandoning Xorg. Wayland breaks everything!

Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Update 06/2025: X11 is alive and well, despite what Red Hat wants you to believe. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver revitalizes the Xorg X11 server as a community project under new leadership.

And Red Hat wanted to silence it.

As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and jonls/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://git.521000.bestelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks NoMachine NX

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

What now?

Following the professional application KiCad's advice:

Recommendations for Users

For Professional Use

If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:

Use X11-based desktop environments such as:

XFCE with X11 KDE Plasma with X11 MATE

Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support

Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only

Choose distributions that maintain X11 support - some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs

Source: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/#

References

@silverhadch
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KDE explicitly stated there are no plans to drop X11. It's just Red Hat that wants to drop everything with X11 for obvious reasons if pushing own competing (not really) software.

https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/issues/202

@alerikaisattera
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And yes i despise Xorg with every cell in my body. Wayland is X12. The same Devs as X and the documents for the base ideas of what X12 should be became the starting documents of Wayland.

Waypiss is just as bad as Xorg, just in a different way

@sertraline
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A bit of a hot take, if Wayland was good you wouldn't have to burn anything, people would have switched long time ago all by themselves and everybody would forget that Xorg even existed.

@silverhadch
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A bit of a hot take, if Wayland was good you wouldn't have to burn anything, people would have switched long time ago all by themselves and everybody would forget that Xorg even existed.

Not the way it works. Software bit rots. The X11 backends of almost everything is bit rotted and unmaintained and removing it allows to focus on Wayland

@Kreijstal
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A bit of a hot take, if Wayland was good you wouldn't have to burn anything, people would have switched long time ago all by themselves and everybody would forget that Xorg even existed.

Not the way it works. Software bit rots. The X11 backends of almost everything is bit rotted and unmaintained and removing it allows to focus on Wayland

with such hostile attitude no wonder people will rather fork the apps and remain on old versions. Take a deep breath and look at you and how you interact with others. Are you annoyed? Maybe, but you won't convince others that way, and if you really believe that we are beyond saving, why interact with us at all?

@silverhadch
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A bit of a hot take, if Wayland was good you wouldn't have to burn anything, people would have switched long time ago all by themselves and everybody would forget that Xorg even existed.

Not the way it works. Software bit rots. The X11 backends of almost everything is bit rotted and unmaintained and removing it allows to focus on Wayland

with such hostile attitude no wonder people will rather fork the apps and remain on old versions. Take a deep breath and look at you and how you interact with others. Are you annoyed? Maybe, but you won't convince others that way, and if you really believe that we are beyond saving, why interact with us at all?

Lmao. I am not the conspiracy theorist believing IBM is in my walls.

@regs01
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regs01 commented Jun 16, 2025

A bit of a hot take, if Wayland was good you wouldn't have to burn anything, people would have switched long time ago all by themselves and everybody would forget that Xorg even existed.

Not the way it works. Software bit rots. The X11 backends of almost everything is bit rotted and unmaintained and removing it allows to focus on Wayland

Wayland cant do a thing and already 16 years old. Gonna start rot sooner than capable of even basic functionality.

We need something absolutely new, as good and as simple as Win32.

@alerikaisattera
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We need something absolutely new, as good and as simple as Win32.

Waypiss is very simple, but somehow you don't like it

@silverhadch
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A bit of a hot take, if Wayland was good you wouldn't have to burn anything, people would have switched long time ago all by themselves and everybody would forget that Xorg even existed.

Not the way it works. Software bit rots. The X11 backends of almost everything is bit rotted and unmaintained and removing it allows to focus on Wayland

Wayland cant do a thing and already 16 years old. Gonna start rot sooner than capable of even basic functionality.

We need something absolutely new, as good and as simple as Win32.

Counting the 10 years of discussion as development

@ataractic
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Now we need somebody with enough wayland knowledge to debunk this.

@Noino
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Noino commented Jun 16, 2025 •
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Now we need somebody with enough wayland knowledge to debunk this.

Many of the “Wayland is broken” anecdotes date as far back as 2016. Sure, things were rough a decade ago—but the landscape has changed dramatically since then. I’m no Wayland expert, but I’ve been daily-driving Hyprland since summer 2023, and used KDE for a couple of months at work and for a year or so on my old laptop at home until i took the time to make my configs thinkpad compatible—no show-stoppers in sight. Honestly, KDE falls into the “just works” category. I even installed it on a tech-illiterate friend’s new PC; eight months in, still no complaints.

Take xclip as an example. Yes, its X11 clipboard API doesn’t work on Wayland—but that’s expected, and more importantly, irrelevant. Wayland has native alternatives like wl-copy and wl-paste. The same applies to other tools: Redshift → wlsunset, and OBS works perfectly fine. Games have run just fine.

I genuinely can’t think of anything I’ve wanted to do that Wayland prevented. Sure, there are still some rough spots—Discord screen sharing was broken for a while—but the browser version served as a temporary workaround, and the issue is now fixed in the native client.

And if you really need an X11-only application, Xwayland offers solid compatibility.

Also, with all the drama and forks going on around the X.Org ecosystem lately (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCU4W5Ab33c ), I’m not even sure how “well” X11 is really doing at this point.

@probonopd
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The professional KiCad application clearly spells it out:

These problems exist because Wayland’s design omits basic functionality that desktop applications for X11, Windows and macOS have relied on for decades—things like being able to position windows or warp the mouse cursor. This functionality was omitted by design, not oversight.

The fragmentation doesn’t help either. GNOME interprets protocols one way, KDE another way, and smaller compositors yet another way. As application developers, we can’t depend on a consistent implementation of various Wayland protocols and experimental extensions. Linux is already a small section of the KiCad userbase. Further fragmentation by window manager creates an unsustainable support burden. Most frustrating is that we can’t fix these problems ourselves. The issues live in Wayland protocols, window managers, and compositors. These are not things that we, as application developers, can code around or patch.

We are not the only application facing these challenges and we hope that the Wayland ecosystem will mature and develop a more balanced, consistent approach that allows applications to function effectively. But we are not there yet.

They come to clear recommendations:

If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:

Use X11-based desktop environments such as:
XFCE with X11
KDE Plasma with X11
MATE

Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support

Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only

Choose distributions that maintain X11 support - some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs

Source: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/

@regs01
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regs01 commented Jun 16, 2025 •
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We need something absolutely new, as good and as simple as Win32.

Waypiss is very simple, but somehow you don't like it

can you provide a snippet of code how to register global hotkey and process it, and how to send a keypress to active window that would work in every desktop environment under wayland without x11 and wouldn't require whole poem to write?

@dm17
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dm17 commented Jun 16, 2025 •
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KDE Dev here.
We want to burn Xorg with Hell fire.

I don't want to burn KDE with "Hell fire," but I certainly wouldn't install it. Why is it always people with pronouns in their bio who are activists to this degree?

Lmao. I am not the conspiracy theorist believing IBM is in my walls.

Disagree with them and you're always a "conspiracy theorist"

@sertraline
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While you sleep these people live in your walls, they work hard to kill Xorg and then, uh, they work hard to kill Wayland too... or at least make it less usable. And then they are going to email vaxry one more time about his community moderated "wrong way" using official RedHat email address. Sleep well, sleep tight, IBM is watching you snore... ( ಠ ͜ʖ ಠ)

@Consolatis
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Consolatis commented Jun 16, 2025 •
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Lmao. I am not the conspiracy theorist believing IBM is in my walls.

Disagree with them and you're always a "conspiracy theorist"

No, implying a secret agenda of "big-tech" to undermine FOSS is what makes somebody a conspiracy theorist.

@probonopd
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Not at all. Just look at what a certain Enterprise Linux company is doing all the time, in clear sight, out in the open.

@alerikaisattera
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Counting the 10 years of discussion as development

Bjorn Stahl didn't waste 10 years yapping and made a display server better than Xorg and Waypiss without even intending to make a display server

The professional KiCad application clearly spells it out

Most of this is due to bad decisions in KiCAD rather than limitations of Waypiss

can you provide a snippet of code how to register global hotkey and process it, and how to send a keypress to active window that would work in every desktop environment under wayland without x11 and wouldn't require whole poem to write?

Global shortcuts must not exist

Why is it always people with pronouns in their bio who are activists to this degree?

Zuby's razor

@silverhadch
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Counting the 10 years of discussion as development

Bjorn Stahl didn't waste 10 years yapping and made a display server better than Xorg and Waypiss without even intending to make a display server

The professional KiCad application clearly spells it out

Most of this is due to bad decisions in KiCAD rather than limitations of Waypiss

can you provide a snippet of code how to register global hotkey and process it, and how to send a keypress to active window that would work in every desktop environment under wayland without x11 and wouldn't require whole poem to write?

Global shortcuts must not exist

Why is it always people with pronouns in their bio who are activists to this degree?

Zuby's razor

Uhh because the X Protocols already existed?

@Kreijstal
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No, implying a secret agenda of "big-tech" to undermine FOSS is what makes somebody a conspiracy theorist.

idc if it is a secret agenda, or some dude pushing his gnome way or the highway view of the world, I reject it.

Global shortcuts must not exist

according to whom? decided by you? Global shortcuts must exist.

@silverhadch
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No, implying a secret agenda of "big-tech" to undermine FOSS is what makes somebody a conspiracy theorist.

idc if it is a secret agenda, or some dude pushing his gnome way or the highway view of the world, I reject it.

Global shortcuts must not exist

according to whom? decided by you? Global shortcuts must exist.

Global shortcuts are a hack in Xorg (most things actually were since the thing was just changed over decades from a regular framebuffer to monitors of the 2000s) that allowed all applications to read all input just a glorified keylogger. There is no permission system in Xorg (and in Wayland but Wayland goes the other way completly deny everything nobody can do anything.) Portals later fixed the issue with Waylands permission System. We now have global shortcut support via a Portal but Applications must use it like OBS did.

idc if it is a secret agenda, or some dude pushing his gnome way or the highway view of the world, I reject it.

I mean okay... but why should the agv user care?

@silverhadch
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silverhadch commented Jun 17, 2025 •
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KDE Dev here.
We want to burn Xorg with Hell fire.

I don't want to burn KDE with "Hell fire," but I certainly wouldn't install it. Why is it always people with pronouns in their bio who are activists to this degree?

Lmao. I am not the conspiracy theorist believing IBM is in my walls.

Disagree with them and you're always a "conspiracy theorist"

Why is it always people with pronouns in their bio who are activists to this degree?

I am a biological male with XY Chromosomes. How dare i put my prounouns into my bio so people know my gender. You Americans and subpar understading of politics make you see identity politics everywhere. I am getting sick of stupidity.

@Kreijstal
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There is no permission system in Xorg

good, I want my programs to work, not to be innundated by constant password request and stupid stuff, on win32 anyone can do anything and it has been successful for decades. if you don't like the behavior of a program... do not use it, or fork it. you don't have to babywrap everything with permissions/flatpacks/containers, if you really do not trust anything, you are just running proprietary software at that point. just buy a macbook for that, your programs will also be useless

@alerikaisattera
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Uhh because the X Protocols already existed?

What are you talking about?

Portals later fixed the issue with Waylands permission System

So, Waypiss requires another program running constantly in the background to do things that don't require one under Xorg and Arcan

win32 anyone can do anything and it has been successful for decades

UAC has entered the chat

@Noino
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Noino commented Jun 17, 2025

There is no permission system in Xorg

good, I want my programs to work, not to be innundated by constant password request and stupid stuff, on win32 anyone can do anything and it has been successful for decades.

You sound like the guy who installs a server and doesnt bother creating new user accounts, because root access has worked for decades and you'd want all your commands to "just work", screw sudo n shit.

Allowing all apps at all times to access all input and display data is clearly a bad idea

@Kreijstal
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There is no permission system in Xorg

good, I want my programs to work, not to be innundated by constant password request and stupid stuff, on win32 anyone can do anything and it has been successful for decades.

You sound like the guy who installs a server and doesnt bother creating new user accounts, because root access has worked for decades and you'd want all your commands to "just work", screw sudo n shit.

Allowing all apps at all times to access all input and display data is clearly a bad idea

bloat is also a bad idea, yet here we are

@sertraline
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sertraline commented Jun 17, 2025 •
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No, implying a secret agenda of "big-tech" to undermine FOSS is what makes somebody a conspiracy theorist

I thought it was common knowledge, not a conspiracy? "No corporation is your friend" is a common sense, IBM has all the sense in the world to push a very specific set of technologies because it may help them to capture the market and make profits, which is the one and only goal of any business in the world. These technologies may not necessarily benefit you as the consumer, but their goal is not to please their consumers... their goal is to make profit.
And while we're at it, I can count at least a few times when Microsoft did big moves to undermine FOSS which arguably slowed down Linux from taking dominance, so they eventually switched from "hate" to "love". But since they state they suddenly love opensource now on their website it's all a conspiracy now, am I right?

@silverhadch
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There is no permission system in Xorg

good, I want my programs to work, not to be innundated by constant password request and stupid stuff, on win32 anyone can do anything and it has been successful for decades. if you don't like the behavior of a program... do not use it, or fork it. you don't have to babywrap everything with permissions/flatpacks/containers, if you really do not trust anything, you are just running proprietary software at that point. just buy a macbook for that, your programs will also be useless

Decide either Linux is more secure then Windows or a bad ripoff.

@sertraline
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sertraline commented Jun 17, 2025 •
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Allowing all apps at all times to access all input and display data is clearly a bad idea

It is, but on any other operating system (that implements this) you get a window asking you "application wants to read your keystrokes, allow? Y/N" and it's up to you to decide whether you allow it or not. On Wayland? Nope, you are not allowed to do that, by design.
Then they invent hacks over bad design decisions like portals. The further we go, the more complicated stuff gets and the more convoluted the entire thing becomes. When somebody above said that Wayland is just X12 they were completely right, because it's going to be an even bigger mess. Hyprland handles global shortcuts in one way, KDE portal does it the other way, GNOME just landed their portal few months ago and their way very likely differs as well. Do you get an actual permission system though? Nope, you don't. You only get a real permission system if you run software via flatpak. Then what is the point?

Decide either Linux is more secure then Windows or a bad ripoff

Unfortunately, shoving everything that Wayland cannot do under dbus and pipewire is not secure in any way. Dbus is not a staple security and the fact it is nowadays required to do basically anything is not good. Let's read the definition of security:

Confidentiality, integrity, and availability (CIA) are the three cornerstones of information security, often referred to as the CIA triad.
Integrity means that data is accurate, trustworthy, and has not been tampered with. Availability ensures that authorized users can access information when they need it.

Wayland does not do anything about security as it is simply a protocol. When you want to know the position of your window, you are outright not allowed to. For this reason when I hover over GUI elements under Wayland I get popups not under my mouse cursor like you would expect to, but somewhere in the corner of my screen. Wayland does not provide any authorization mechanisms. Wayland is not secure, it is simply restrictive, and this restrictiveness is an absolute disaster for a) usability b) accessibility. The accessibility solution that Freedesktop is working on will never be able to do what solutions on Mac can do, and yet Mac stays more secure without being restrictive towards the end user. Wayland security is a house of cards that gives the visibility of something but in reality any malicious software can easily bypass all of that stuff, while the end user stays restricted from accessing basic functionality that was there for at least 35 years.

@shakeyourbunny
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shakeyourbunny commented Jun 17, 2025 •
edited by probonopd
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(...)

The Xlibre Dev btw.

Yeah,

if you don't have any arguments more to be against something or someone, throw in and repeat ad infinitum ad hominem attacks. Also you seem to be stuck in something that happened some years ago and the rest of the world has moved on and learned to live with it.

It's also interesting that you are not able to spell out his name, seems that your lips are so much twitching full of badmouthing by even thinking of Enrico.

Like it or not, the fork was necessary and it took him too long to do it, instead he tried to work within X.org to do the fixes. Also, it's very interesting to see, that now the distributions are scrambling to drop X, just because of the possibility that there is a demand from the user side to have X.org replaced by Xlibre.

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