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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Think twice before abandoning X11. Wayland breaks everything!

tl;dr: Wayland is not "the future", it is merely an incompatible alternative to the established standard with a different set of priorities and goals.

Wayland breaks everything! It is binary incompatible, provides no clear transition path with 1:1 replacements for everything in X11, and is even philosophically incompatible with X11. Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Feature comparison

Please do fact-check and suggest corrections/improvements below. Maybe this table should find its home in a Wiki, so that everyone could easily collaborate. I'm just a bit fearful of vandalism... ideas?

✅ Supported ⚠️ Available with limitations ❌ Not available or only available on some systems (requires particular compositors or additional software which may not be present on every system)

Functionality Xorg Wayland
Performance ✅ Best (DistroWatch) ⚠️ Worse (DistroWatch)
Power consumption ? ?
RAM usage ✅ ~150 MB lower (Phoronix) ⚠️ ~150 MB higher (Phoronix)
Nvidia GPUs ✅ Well supported by proprietary Nvidia driver, also older hardware (open source driver Nouveau never worked satisfactorily) ⚠️ Only recent hardware
Multi-monitor ✅ Supported via XRandR, Xinerama (TheServerHost, KDE Blog) ✅ Stable, dynamic hotplug, theoretically better (debatable, comment) multi-monitor support (KDE Blog, CBT Nuggets)
Multi-resolution Multi-screen Support ✅ Can be done (tedu); mixed refresh rates (guiodic, Reddit) ✅ Per-output resolutions and per-output scaling with sharp rendering (CBT Nuggets, EndeavourOS Forum)
Cropping and Scaling ✅ Per monitor with XRandR (xrandr manpage) wp_viewporter, wp_fractional_scale_manager_v1, per-window ("surface") cropping (Wayland Protos, KDE Dev) - but applications can be blurry
Screen Recording / Capture ✅ Supported via X APIs; easy screen & window recording (Xlib Manual, OBS Wiki) ❌ Not natively available—wlr-screencopy and/or ext-image-copy-capture can be used without Portals but may not be present on every system. Otherwise requires Screencast Portal, which may not be present on every system (GNOME Docs, PipeWire Portal FAQ).
Input Devices / Event Routing XInput, XInput2, global intercept (XInput2 Docs) ❌ Input routed only to focused window ("surface"), no global interception (Wayland FAQ, Wayland Security)
Input Injection ✅ Via XTEST, XSendEvent (XTEST Spec) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (libei GH, KDE Input) . Workaround: /dev/uinput should work everywhere.
Global Hotkeys / Key Grabs XGrabKey()/XGrabButton() (Xlib Docs) ❌ Not natively available—requires Global Shortcuts Portal, which may not be present on every system (Portal Docs, KDE)
Window Positioning / Stacking ✅ Clients move/resize windows (Xlib Ref) ❌ Only compositor controls window positioning (Wayland FAQ, KDE Dev), 2 Years Later Wayland Is Still Debating A Basic Feature
Clipboard Access ✅ Full/explicit, ICCCM selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop / Copy and Paste ✅ Xdnd, Motif (Xdnd Spec), Motif (Motif DND) ⚠️ wl_data_offer, wl_data_device_manager (Wayland Protos, KDE Drag&Drop) but implementations are flaky, especially when dragging between X11 and Wayland applications
Touch / Gesture Support XInput2 (XInput Multi-Touch) wl_touch, gestures via zwp_pointer_gestures_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Tablet Support XInput2 (libinput Tablet) zwp_tablet_manager_v2 (Wayland Protos)
Remote Display / Network Transparency ✅ X11 protocol, SSH forwarding (OpenBSD FAQ, XForwarding) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (Wayland FAQ)
Screen Configuration XRandR direct (xrandr manpage) ❌ Only compositor can set layout; clients have no access (KDE Dev). Supported by some compositors which may not be present on every system via wlr-output-management and associated tools like wlr-randr.
Global menus ✅ Works ❌ Not natively available—requires qt_extended_surface set_generic_property which may not be present on every system
Window Management Hints (size, position) XSetWMHints, XSetNormalHints (ICCCM) ❌ Position not supported, only size
Window Title / Icon Name XSetWMName, XSetIconName (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_title/set_icon (xdg-shell)
Window State (iconic, withdrawn, etc.) XSetWMState (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed to clients; handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Protocols (WM_DELETE_WINDOW) ✅ ICCCM, WM_DELETE_WINDOW (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.close (xdg-shell)
Window Class / Instance XSetClassHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Transience (dialogs, popups) XSetTransientForHint (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_parent (xdg-shell)
Input Focus (active window) XSetInputFocus (Xlib Ref) ❌ Managed by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Selections ✅ Selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop ✅ Motif/Xdnd (Xdnd Spec) ✅ Native protocol (Wayland/Drag&Drop)
Window Grouping XSetWMHints group (ICCCM) ❌ No concept/protocol for grouping (Wayland FAQ)
Input Model / Input Hint ✅ Input model hints (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed/natively supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Manager Communication ✅ ICCCM client-to-WM (ICCCM) ❌ No standard protocol (Wayland FAQ)
Colormap / Visual hints ✅ Colormap per ICCCM (ICCCM) ⚠️ Handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Icon Pixmap / Bitmap ✅ ICCCM icon hints (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_icon (xdg-shell)
Urgency Hint XUrgencyHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not standardized; up to compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Shade (roll up/down) WM_STATE (mapped/unmapped state) ❌ Not supported
Window Always On Top (z-order) ✅ Applications can request stacking/z-order via WM_HINTS, window group, _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE (EWMH) ❌ Not supported
Exclusive Display Control / DRM Leasing ⚠️ No protocol, possible with libdrm (libdrm) wp_drm_lease_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Transparency / Compositing ⚠️ With composite extension/compton/picom (wiki.archlinux) ✅ Built-in; always composited (Wayland FAQ)
Color Management ⚠️ Apps/loaders like xiccd (XCM docs) wp-color-manager-v1 (Wayland Protos)
VSync / Tear-free Rendering ⚠️ Inconsistent, needs correct driver/config (AskUbuntu) ✅ Guaranteed by compositor; always tear-free (Wayland FAQ)
Security / App Isolation ⚠️ Via extensions, e.g., Xnamespace extension (The Register) ⚠️ Wayland tries to separate applications from each other. As a result, applications can't do many things ("We're treated like hostile threat actors on our own workstations")
Click into a window to terminate the application xkill ❌ Not natively available—some compositors may have proprietary mechanisms, which may not be present on every system
Click into a window to see its metadata xprop ❌ Not supported
Set and get metadata (properties) on windows to exchange information regarding windows ✅ X Atoms (Docs) ❌ Not supported
One window server used by virtually all desktop environments and distributions ✅ Xorg (and Xlibre) ❌ Every desktop environment comes with a different compositor, which behaves differently, supports different features and has different bugs

Status update

Update 06/2025: X11 is alive and well, despite what Red Hat wants you to believe. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver revitalizes the Xorg X11 server as a community project under new leadership.

And Red Hat wanted to silence it.


As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).

Wayland issues

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and sharpbracket/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://git.521000.bestelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks auto-type in password managers

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

  • Wayland might allow the compositor (not: the application) to set window positions, but that means that as an application author, I can't do anything but wait for KDE to implement https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15329 - and even then, it will only work under KDE, not Gnome or elsewhere. Big step backward compared to X11!

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Wayland breaks multi desktop docks

  • "Unfortunately Wayland is not designed to support multi desktop dock projects. This is why each DE using Wayland is building their own custom docks. Plus there is a lot of complexity to support Wayland based apps and also merge that data with apps running in Xwayland. A dock isn't useful unless it knows about every window and app running on the system." zquestz/plank-reloaded#70 ❌ broken since 2025-06-10

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

Summary what is wrong with Wayland, by one of its contributors

image

Source: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/179#note_2965661

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

What now?

Following the professional application KiCad's advice:

Recommendations for Users

For Professional Use

If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:

Use X11-based desktop environments such as:

XFCE with X11 KDE Plasma with X11 MATE

Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support

Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only

Choose distributions that maintain X11 support - some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs

Source: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/#

Similarly, for Krite: https://www.davidrevoy.com/article1030/debian-12-kde-plasma-2024-install-guide#d-krita-as-appimage

References

@reaperx7
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Only a fool trusts his UNIX to an unvetted source, and that fool and his UNIX will soon be parted.

A wise man will source his applications and build to his systems needs.

Every UNIX-like system that has ever been a worthwhile distribution either builds their own binaries for distribution or pushes source packages and buildscripts. Arch, Debian, Slackware, Gentoo, and Void all use some in-house package or buildscript set.

That's UNIX Security 101... You don't trust external packages. You use sources and buildscripts or in-house packages ONLY. This is why I said you don't need layers upon layers of security if you do things the UNIX way, not the Windows way.

Pretty soon it'll be GNU/Linux needs a good antimalware tool kit because a rogue flatpak pushed a trojan horse in, replicated a worm, and then hijacked the system turning it into some zombie for a bitcoin botnet out of Russia. All because some bonehad couldn't be bothered to run a compiler.

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 20, 2026

Pretty soon it'll be GNU/Linux needs a good antimalware tool kit because a rogue flatpak pushed a trojan horse in, replicated a worm, and then hijacked the system turning it into some zombie for a bitcoin botnet out of Russia.

The sad state of tooling security is rather curl https://… | bash. But those don’t need a display manager to take over the system.

@darkhog
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darkhog commented Apr 20, 2026

Pretty soon it'll be GNU/Linux needs a good antimalware tool kit because a rogue flatpak pushed a trojan horse in, replicated a worm, and then hijacked the system turning it into some zombie for a bitcoin botnet out of Russia.

The sad state of tooling security is rather curl https://… | bash. But those don’t need a display manager to take over the system.

No malware in active use really does. Maybe some keylogger, but these hasn't been in use as they're easy to detect by AV software. Now infostealers are used instead that steal cookies/authorization tokens directly from the filesystem and you don't really need to interface with GUI of any kind to do that. Same thing with ransomware/data erasers - maybe you'd use GUI code to display the ransom note, but actual data erasing/encryption can be done without interfacing with GUI at all.

Point is, if you get malware on your system, you're fucked regardless if you use Wayland, Arcan, X11, raw framebuffer, or TTY.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Apr 20, 2026

Pretty soon it'll be GNU/Linux needs a good antimalware tool kit because a rogue flatpak pushed a trojan horse in, replicated a worm, and then hijacked the system turning it into some zombie for a bitcoin botnet out of Russia.

The sad state of tooling security is rather curl https://… | bash. But those don’t need a display manager to take over the system.

That's because nobody attacks the display manager. There are far more lucrative targets, like OpenSSH, has been a known target on malware authors for years. Why? Almost every GNU/Linux system contains sshd, it can access the kernel and command line, it's independent of the interface and shell, and most systems don't have an alert that lets you know someone just logged in. But because OpenSSH is developed as a FOSS project, any vulnerabilities are known almost day 1 from testing and patches get rolled out quickly.

The display manager offers you nothing other than visuals and to be fair, you might see a lot going on, but outside of that if someone alt+shift+F2s to a new terminal, then all you see is what is on the F1 terminal, not the F2 terminal because it's a different session.

@Roadhog360
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Roadhog360 commented Apr 20, 2026

Personally all I'm missing from wayland is just the ability to give an application access to capture any window without prompting me. I still need X11 when using it for streaming. On X11, I just start OBS and everything comes to life. If a window isn't open I don't get another capture portal prompt again. Meanwhile on Wayland, when I open OBS I get spammed with tons of portals prompting me to capture them again. I don't have everything relevant to all scenes open; I only have what's relevant to a specific scene open, so this repetitive badgering gets old quick. The portals aren't even labeled so I have no way of knowing which element is opening which portal and I have to close them all just to manually assign the portals every time I open OBS unless I already had the window open. And if the window closes while OBS is open I have to reopen the portal capture AGAIN. The portal nagging also further annoys me since when I am streaming a PC game, I have a game capture source that I manually configure before the start of the stream; I don't want this one to nag me.

On X11, my OBS setup runs like clockwork and I only have to touch the one game capture source when I need to change the window it's targeting. OBS is allowed to record what I need when it's needed and if the window doesn't exist it doesn't give me any popups. When the windows open after OBS starts, or reopen it handles it fine. On Wayland the amount of "pit stops" I have to do to periodically fix window captures is what just makes me go back to X11 when using OBS.

In short, the only reason why I am switching to X11 at all is because of OBS. When Wayland gives something similar to the permissiveness of xcomposite and allows me to assign specific applications to access it, that's the moment I can drop X11 for good. I run Wayland when OBS is not needed.

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 20, 2026

That's UNIX Security 101... You don't trust external packages. You use sources and buildscripts or in-house packages ONLY. This is why I said you don't need layers upon layers of security if you do things the UNIX way, not the Windows way.

Tough shit. Not all end users are going to follow that. Most end users in the world are fools and they aren't just going to go away. So you can either be elitist and dismissive, uselessly complaining in an echo chamber like a lazy piece of shit, or you can work towards making a better product for all users.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Apr 20, 2026

That's UNIX Security 101... You don't trust external packages. You use sources and buildscripts or in-house packages ONLY. This is why I said you don't need layers upon layers of security if you do things the UNIX way, not the Windows way.

Tough shit. Not all end users are going to follow that. Most end users in the world are fools and they aren't just going to go away. So you can either be elitist and dismissive, uselessly complaining in an echo chamber like a lazy piece of shit, or you can work towards making a better product for all users.

It's not being lazy. It's part of the design.

It's not being an elitist, it's doing things the right way.

If End Users don't want to learn, then sorry to say but that's on them for trying to assume Windows and GNU/Linux are interchangeable operating systems. They're entirely different systems with entirely different ecosystems.

The reason WHY we act dismissive is because people are not wanting to learn a different operating system that is by design, not user friendly.

Mac OS and Windows are designed so that children and non-PC literate adults can use them. They're used in schools and offices because of the simplicity of design.

Wayland is not going to be some magic pill that "just works and solves every problem". If you assume or think along these lines then you're a fool and a bigger piece of shit than calling a someone who actually learned UNIX across various iterations of it a piece of shit.

We aren't here to hold hands of new users who refuse to learn. We will teach if and when people ask. We aren't being lazy pieces of shit, we aren't being bullies, we aren't trolling, and we aren't being mean of that's what you and others assume.

If you want to learn the system, then learn the system. You will find out if you learn it, it may or may not be for you. That's why we suggest people try out GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, etc. in Virtual Machines rather than thinking they can just throw Ubuntu on a PC and think "Oh! This will be just like Windows without all the crap!" only to find out they entered a minefield with clown shoes on.

The only echo chamber is the echo chamber the people covering their ears going "Lalalala I can't hear you! Lalalala! I don't need to listen! Lalalala! I know better!" have between their ears. A damn empty head!

@Arup65
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Arup65 commented Apr 20, 2026 via email

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 20, 2026

If End Users don't want to learn, then sorry to say but that's on them for trying to assume Windows and GNU/Linux are interchangeable operating systems. They're entirely different systems with entirely different ecosystems.

I think that stance is both wrong and not representative of GNU Linux.

We have tools so people can can use programs like they do with Windows. Flatpak can provide that. Not every distro or appstore (= graphical package manager) needs to go down that path (we have the freedom to build the distro we need), but there are stores that do. And that’s good, because it makes the distro intuitive for people used to Windows or MacOS. GNU Linux is flexible enough for that. Without Wayland.

@darkhog
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darkhog commented Apr 20, 2026

That's UNIX Security 101... You don't trust external packages. You use sources and buildscripts or in-house packages ONLY. This is why I said you don't need layers upon layers of security if you do things the UNIX way, not the Windows way.

Tough shit. Not all end users are going to follow that. Most end users in the world are fools and they aren't just going to go away. So you can either be elitist and dismissive, uselessly complaining in an echo chamber like a lazy piece of shit, or you can work towards making a better product for all users.

Or you can let users make mistakes and learn from them. And if they can't handle that? Hand them an abacus and tell them to use that instead.

@Roadhog360
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Roadhog360 commented Apr 20, 2026

Its OBS specifically in my case that has been keeping me off Wayland although I have been using Wayland for quite a few years with Arch and Gnome.

Yeah me too. I don't mind Wayland's security as much as I find it unnecessary; IF it was configurable or more flexible. Wayland's current design philosophies are inherently at odds with how I use OBS. But Wayland does not offer a way to give any application more access, so OBS does not have the tools it needs to thrive and I simply have to go back to X11 while using it.

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 21, 2026

It's not being lazy. It's part of the design.

The design is lazy and shitty. The X11 devs are lazy. Software devs still crying about X11 are lazy.

It's not being an elitist, it's doing things the right way.

It's quite literally elitist.

If End Users don't want to learn, then sorry to say but that's on them for trying to assume Windows and GNU/Linux are interchangeable operating systems. They're entirely different systems with entirely different ecosystems.

Bad take and not what Linux is about.

The reason WHY we act dismissive is because people are not wanting to learn a different operating system that is by design, not user friendly.

There is no valid reason that Linux shouldn't be user friendly.

Mac OS and Windows are designed so that children and non-PC literate adults can use them. They're used in schools and offices because of the simplicity of design.

Irrelevant.

Wayland is not going to be some magic pill that "just works and solves every problem". If you assume or think along these lines then you're a fool and a bigger piece of shit than calling a someone who actually learned UNIX across various iterations of it a piece of shit.

No, it just solves many problems that X11 was NEVER going to solve literally ever.

We aren't here to hold hands of new users who refuse to learn. We will teach if and when people ask. We aren't being lazy pieces of shit, we aren't being bullies, we aren't trolling, and we aren't being mean of that's what you and others assume.

No, people like you do not "teach".

The only echo chamber is the echo chamber the people covering their ears going "Lalalala I can't hear you! Lalalala! I don't need to listen! Lalalala! I know better!" have between their ears. A damn empty head!

That's better than trying to keep a dead project alive.

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 21, 2026

That's UNIX Security 101... You don't trust external packages. You use sources and buildscripts or in-house packages ONLY. This is why I said you don't need layers upon layers of security if you do things the UNIX way, not the Windows way.

Tough shit. Not all end users are going to follow that. Most end users in the world are fools and they aren't just going to go away. So you can either be elitist and dismissive, uselessly complaining in an echo chamber like a lazy piece of shit, or you can work towards making a better product for all users.

Or you can let users make mistakes and learn from them. And if they can't handle that? Hand them an abacus and tell them to use that instead.

Nah. I'd rather not be an elitist loser. Linux can, and should, be for everyone.

@reaperx7
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That's UNIX Security 101... You don't trust external packages. You use sources and buildscripts or in-house packages ONLY. This is why I said you don't need layers upon layers of security if you do things the UNIX way, not the Windows way.

Tough shit. Not all end users are going to follow that. Most end users in the world are fools and they aren't just going to go away. So you can either be elitist and dismissive, uselessly complaining in an echo chamber like a lazy piece of shit, or you can work towards making a better product for all users.

Or you can let users make mistakes and learn from them. And if they can't handle that? Hand them an abacus and tell them to use that instead.

Nah. I'd rather not be an elitist loser. Linux can, and should, be for everyone.

Sure, same as dd can be for everyone to use freely and easily without knowing how to use it. You make about as much sense as a screen door on a gas chamber.

@Slatepaws
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Slatepaws commented Apr 21, 2026

That's UNIX Security 101... You don't trust external packages. You use sources and buildscripts or in-house packages ONLY. This is why I said you don't need layers upon layers of security if you do things the UNIX way, not the Windows way.

Tough shit. Not all end users are going to follow that. Most end users in the world are fools and they aren't just going to go away. So you can either be elitist and dismissive, uselessly complaining in an echo chamber like a lazy piece of shit, or you can work towards making a better product for all users.

Or you can let users make mistakes and learn from them. And if they can't handle that? Hand them an abacus and tell them to use that instead.

Nah. I'd rather not be an elitist loser. Linux can, and should, be for everyone.

Linux isn't, and should never be microslop. you want an os written for everyone, and usable by no one. Go back to windows.

@rpcarvalheira
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That's UNIX Security 101... You don't trust external packages. You use sources and buildscripts or in-house packages ONLY. This is why I said you don't need layers upon layers of security if you do things the UNIX way, not the Windows way.

Tough shit. Not all end users are going to follow that. Most end users in the world are fools and they aren't just going to go away. So you can either be elitist and dismissive, uselessly complaining in an echo chamber like a lazy piece of shit, or you can work towards making a better product for all users.

Or you can let users make mistakes and learn from them. And if they can't handle that? Hand them an abacus and tell them to use that instead.

Nah. I'd rather not be an elitist loser. Linux can, and should, be for everyone.

Linux isn't, and should never be microslop. you want an os written for everyone, and usable by no one. Go back to windows.

nobody is saying that it should be new windows or something. mac is done on unix, way safer and most of the time with far less control than linux with wayland. yall have to just assume that x11 is the windows vista of linux and instead of just complain, offer better implementations, as most here are devs (which, in general, we HOPE that it is not the majority on opensource anymore) and can contribute.

but instead you're just complaining that your precious gates have been tossed away and that it became harder to gatekeep. listen, despite how much I hate to use venv on arch due to pep instead of just open system and do pip install spyware-enabler keylogger-plus-plus, I do understand that vibecoding makes hackers able to do side-trust attacks via slop exploiting libs that look normal but are also malware.

even so, most devs in github, even here discussing this, are mostly really bad at sec. despite what most complaints here about ¨locking the system" are, I do think that wayland is still bad for many other reasons, but x11 should've just died in 2010.

inclusion, of almost (bcs 1312) anyone, capable or not, is and will continue to be the core principal of open-source. if you argue against more people not using the OS properly and reading tons of readme.md, wikis and docs, even when most of them doesn't even have translations and are english only, then, well, you're just a gatekeeping piece of... art and i am quite sure you're the main event of every party you're in.

if you want to discuss how wayland is bad because of a person there, go ahead, let us all unite, make a fork, fix, debug... im pretty sure that many people, from many skillsets will contribute. however, funny to understand that many fixes on wine, kernel, DEs, sound, and other aspects of linux were recently fixed by a gaming company which is now making more than one console that runs on linux and are even moving to arm-based solutions in opensource because they wanted a better product. But now, as gamers are happily consuming linux, it is not just about learning, it is about hardening, ui/ux, testing, fixing... because linux was a safe place for devs, but... only devs.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Apr 22, 2026

Systems change, designs change, and, sometimes, philosophies change. And in the case of X11 the systems and designs NEED to change because they aren't good enough anymore.

Seriously think with your brain about what you just wrote. You blame developers who know more than you. Why should we learn a BROKEN BY DESIGN system? X11 for us just works qnd works correctly. Just because people like you think it's old and has some imaginary problems doesn't make you right. We know the system, you don't! STAY IN YOUR LANE!

GNOME and KDE don't get to call all the shots! We don't make applications for KDE and GNOME. We make applications for UNIX as a whole, not two overbloated userlands that can't even standardize libraries and applications between versions. Xfce, LXQt, MATE, and many other userlands exist and work on non-Linux kernel systems. Yeah genius. Linux and GNU aren't the only system in UNIX. And guess what, wayland still doesn't work properly off GNU/Linux limiting impact and usefulness. Guess what also... Virtual Environments are one of the highest reaches of UNIX systems. Guess what doesn't work properly in VMs? Wayland. Why? It uses OpenGL and Vulkan ehich require full hardware acceleration. Guess which VMs have full hardware acceleration? One. QEmu. Guess which is the hardest and least used in the corporate world? QEmu. And guess what you need for QEmu to work with full hardware acceleration? A host GNU/Linux OS with VFIO and IOMMU. Guess what the number one host of VMs is? Windows. Wayland on FreeBSD is a complete insufferable crashfest.

You claim to know whats best for UNIX when you don't even understand the very system you want to change.

@rpcarvalheira
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When I started as an IT Support Technician back in the day (~20 to ~25 years ago), there was already a joke that '(most) devs would feel more capable as surgeons to fix their own heart than their doctors, just because they know how to use a search engine' or the overly simplified 'you just need one developer to ride a plane', and I would say that it fits these comments as a glove. Not only at being elitist, but many comments here just are a proof about that devs feel they own UNIX and are the embodiment of intelligence. To say "you blame developers who know more then you" after saying "think with your brain" is pretty bad. There are devs that in 2026 still argues in favour of using terms such as "blacklist" and "master" instead of "blocklist" and "main" because they assume that "this shouldn't matter anymore" or that it is 'old history' despite 10+ years of discussion. It feels like IT industry created "US defaultism - developers version", at the same time that most developers wouldn't even have a job if they couldn't click to add more ram on EC2 but feel like owners and managers of the cluster themselves despite lacking knowledge for it.

"But Linux is free!1!1!111one!" well, is it? Sort of (UNIX as a whole is worse but here we go): If you have to be technical and specialised, you have not only to invest hardware but time and education, which all costs money. Even a raspberry pi runs Linux, but in which markets it is cheap and accessible? Are technology world-wide available? Most countries still use b/g/n networks majorly. Some cities are at maximum 3g networks, probably with people still using WEP security. Some still buying cod/c2q, celeron, used xeons and gtx850 to be able to have a machine and well, you're right on that. However, they're on windows, using crappy drivers, without good solutions to.migrste because they're software locked somehow, and we're incapable of providing actual solutions as well, because they would be incapable of mingling with x11, same way that it would be difficult for them to use terminals. I hope you can pinpoint me tutorials that teaches Linux for elderly people in many languages or any languages other than English that keeps updated and is fairly simple and non-technical. Because most are deprecated, insufficient or even further, incapable of helping a grandma to fix a bootloader.

So, the "everyone can learn" is really an argument? If so, to talk about politics you have to be a graduate on it, same for social sciences, humanities, STEM/STEAM, bio/med, not to mention different technical work such as woodworking, etc. which, well, we know most won't do because time, money, capabilities, resources, etc. But not only, this locks knowledge and is responsible of gatekeeping access to many people that could become brilliant given time. If we have to improve Linux to have millions of gamers, which will result in maybe a few thousands of developers, along incoming years, which, not only will specialise in Linux at it's core instinctively but also become excellent pros, well, where do I sign? Specially so we can fight for rights to repair, to own, to be; even more with age regulations and privacy concerns. And yeah, this people would be starting on gnome, kde, xfce or lxqt. But even then, xfce and lxqt are also slowly moving to Wayland. So, what are you suggesting? Is it that people from many different DEs and views, that engineer these views for us, are all wrong for changing because they're uneducated or not using their brains? I could be wrong, but this sounded implicitly in your positioning and I would like to understand it better. But anyway, moving forward.

Education is also experimental. I would never see a kid today playing with linux the same way they do with android. They learn how to use a few fastboot commands to root their phones, unlock bootloader, install apps from xda and github, all to play Roblox, Fortnite, etc; others start studying coding while trying to break denuvo with the help of chatgpt or start coding glsl to create shaders for reshade to play genshin impact; all just to play their games. And currently, this is a Microsoft only experience that we're gatekeeping from Linux. We've moved away from hacking. And WSL2 made many of these newcomers to be completely distant from the open-source communities nonetheless.

Our whole communities were all made around inclusion, belonging, enablement and being experimental. Can you not see how ableist/elitist it is to say that "users that don't learn to use the system should not be using it"? How many manuals and documentation are in other languages besides English? How many of these English only docs are even in good and readable English? How do you expect people to request for support when all they find online is comments similar to yours (hating, gatekeeping, attacking, distancing)? How available and ease of access are the information they need to solve their problems?

HOW HARD AND SPECIALIZED people have to be, to be able to use a webcam, a joystick, to install an program/app, to play games, TO BOOT THEIR SYSTEM, to choose a distro, choose a DE. How hard it has to be for the user to be able to have feature parity to other OSes such as Windows (so the bar is low) inside their DEs?

And to be pretty honest considering all of that, Valve has done more for the open-source then most developers ever did: they made possible for more non technical users to actually move away from Windows and not go to MacOS with very small incentives.

I understand your love for the machine, but a piece of code is just a piece of code. It's not worth your mental health, balance, etc. UNIX is not a religion, it is a tool. Let us not make a new "vim vs the whole universe", because nobody has that energy anymore.

But a good OS should be a "just use" one, intuitive, but also capable of deep hacking if you're capable of that. So, what is your solution besides no Wayland, no gnome, no kde (and in the future, no xfce, lxqt, and many other userlands)?

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 22, 2026

But a good OS should be a "just use" one, intuitive, but also capable of deep hacking if you're capable of that. So, what is your solution besides no Wayland, …

xorg just works. The sad part of this argument is that Wayland is what broke the OS for many normal users. Wayland said "no X11". Also "no screen sharing". Your programs shouldn’t just stop being able to share the screen, but that’s what happened to colleagues when their distro switched to Wayland.

The problem is that Wayland didn’t even try to preserve the API, so KDE and Gnome had to decide whether to pay the cost of maintaining two incompatible APIs for their core performance critical parts, or to break programs people use. They should not have been forced into this decision, but they were, because Wayland said "no" to existing solutions.

@reaperx7
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Wayland is a solution in search of a problem that doesn't exist except theough gaslighting and misinformation.

This is why nobody trusts IBM, Red Hat, and Free Desktops any more. You don't disrupt a working design just to make a marketable OS to be hip and cool.

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 22, 2026

Seriously think with your brain about what you just wrote. You blame developers who know more than you. Why should we learn a BROKEN BY DESIGN system? X11 for us just works qnd works correctly. Just because people like you think it's old and has some imaginary problems doesn't make you right. We know the system, you don't! STAY IN YOUR LANE!

It is old and has real problems that are never going to get fixed.

GNOME and KDE don't get to call all the shots! We don't make applications for KDE and GNOME. We make applications for UNIX as a whole, not two overbloated userlands that can't even standardize libraries and applications between versions.

Maybe you do. Personally, I make applications for users as a whole.

Xfce, LXQt, MATE, and many other userlands exist and work on non-Linux kernel systems.

Almost all of which are actively moving to, or at least adding an option for, Wayland.

Yeah genius. Linux and GNU aren't the only system in UNIX.

Yeah, and?

And guess what, wayland still doesn't work properly off GNU/Linux limiting impact and usefulness.

I've been on Wayland only for about a year now and my distro dropped X11 months ago. No issues. Nothing broken. No software that I've needed, or tried, to use that doesn't work.

Guess what also... Virtual Environments are one of the highest reaches of UNIX systems. Guess what doesn't work properly in VMs? Wayland. Why? It uses OpenGL and Vulkan ehich require full hardware acceleration. Guess which VMs have full hardware acceleration? One. QEmu. Guess which is the hardest and least used in the corporate world? QEmu. And guess what you need for QEmu to work with full hardware acceleration? A host GNU/Linux OS with VFIO and IOMMU. Guess what the number one host of VMs is? Windows.

So, it is possible, and the rest of the VMs are lagging behind. Sounds like laziness on the part of the rest of the VM devs.

Wayland on FreeBSD is a complete insufferable crashfest.

This is a FreeBSD problem. But also, FreeBSD is kind of bad, at least as a desktop. It's fine in certain environments.

You claim to know whats best for UNIX when you don't even understand the very system you want to change.

I don't remember claiming this. I've claimed X11 sucks and devs should stop resisting Wayland. This does not change UNIX's philosophy or any core OS architecture. You can try to argue about how Wayland doesn't fit the philosophy, and I'll be able to make the exact same arguments about X11 no longer fitting the philosophy.

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 22, 2026

xorg just works. The sad part of this argument is that Wayland is what broke the OS for many normal users. Wayland said "no X11". Also "no screen sharing". Your programs shouldn’t just stop being able to share the screen, but that’s what happened to colleagues when their distro switched to Wayland.

Screen sharing works just fine on Wayland, if the software is written correctly. Discord figured it out pretty easily.

The problem is that Wayland didn’t even try to preserve the API, so KDE and Gnome had to decide whether to pay the cost of maintaining two incompatible APIs for their core performance critical parts, or to break programs people use. They should not have been forced into this decision, but they were, because Wayland said "no" to existing solutions.

Not even. They were forced into the decision of: do we continue to support the inefficient X11 which is ending active development and going into maintenance only mode? Or, do we start to support Wayland which is newer and still actively developed?

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 22, 2026

Screen sharing works just fine on Wayland, if the software …

You realize yourself that you just wrote that Wayland breaks applications, right?

The problem is that Wayland didn’t even try to preserve the API, so KDE and Gnome had to decide whether to pay the cost of maintaining two incompatible APIs for their core performance critical parts, or to break programs people use. They should not have been forced into this decision, but they were, because Wayland said "no" to existing solutions.

Not even. They were forced into the decision of: do we continue to support the inefficient X11

There’s a false claim in this sentence.

which is ending active development

Except that there are people who continue to work on X11. This was the second false statement.

and going into maintenance only mode?

Declared by whom?

Or, do we start to support Wayland which is newer … (non-distinguishing statements removed)

After trimming all the false claims and non-differences, what remains is “Wayland which is newer”. And breaks applications. (and BSDs, but you said that in your other reply)

@Roadhog360
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Basically "old = bad" and "works on my machine"

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Apr 23, 2026

It is old and has real problems that are never going to get fixed.

What real problems? What does wayland fix? Application security layers? What makes you think a keylogger is the most important problem with a UNIX system? Hackers today go after Session Tokens. Something wayland doesn't protect against. Ask any Discord user what a Session Token theft can mean. Now apply that to any website you could visit. Nobody needs your screen time, nobody needs your keystrokes. All they need is your credentials and a last session token and your account is history. Compromise a website and that's all you need. It's called a Man-In-The-Middle attack. It's one of the hardest attacks to defend against in information security if you don't understand the vector used. The worst part is, while it can be the fastest to stop, it's the hardest to detect. No security layer for an application can prevent it. It's not part of an app. No antivirus can stop it. Once the site has been accessed and you've logged in, it's too late. It doesn't matter what your display manager protects against. Keylogging is dead.

Even the xz situation involved around attacking OpenSSH, systemd, and the kernel command line. The absolute worst place to have an attack. Not the display manager. Display manager wouldn't have been needed to glean every file off a user account, decrypt any needed, and then that's it. Everything is stolen and diaplay manager bypassed entirely. No keylogging needed.

So, it is possible, and the rest of the VMs are lagging behind. Sounds like laziness on the part of the rest of the VM devs.

Again, you didn't read. QEmu without VFIO and IOMMU and a secondary GPU doesn't work well still with wayland. An emulated GPU is still done on the CPU, in software. Software accelerated wayland, which uses either OpenGL or Vulkan, is not exactly fast on software. Surprisingly, X11 DDX is fast. Maybe because it was written to work with both software and hardware with minimal impact upon either. Guess that makes it a superior design for being older. After all if it works better it must be better.

This is a FreeBSD problem. But also, FreeBSD is kind of bad, at least as a desktop. It's fine in certain environments.

Works fine as a desktop for some of us using it for various tasks and workflows. Maybe instead of dunking on other systems, try using them.

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 23, 2026

Screen sharing works just fine on Wayland, if the software …

You realize yourself that you just wrote that Wayland breaks applications, right?

Wrong. Being lazy and failing to update your shit break applications.

The problem is that Wayland didn’t even try to preserve the API, so KDE and Gnome had to decide whether to pay the cost of maintaining two incompatible APIs for their core performance critical parts, or to break programs people use. They should not have been forced into this decision, but they were, because Wayland said "no" to existing solutions.

Not even. They were forced into the decision of: do we continue to support the inefficient X11

There’s a false claim in this sentence.

Nope. X11 is inefficient.

which is ending active development

Except that there are people who continue to work on X11. This was the second false statement.

For maintenance only. There has been no real active development for over a decade. It's the entire reason why there is an XLibre fork.

and going into maintenance only mode?

Declared by whom?

The fact that they've only done security and maintenance patches for over a decade.

Or, do we start to support Wayland which is newer … (non-distinguishing statements removed)

After trimming all the false claims and non-differences, what remains is “Wayland which is newer”. And breaks applications. (and BSDs, but you said that in your other reply)

Newer, better architecture design, better security, better display scaling and multi monitor support, no useless "middleman"...

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 23, 2026

It is old and has real problems that are never going to get fixed.

What real problems? What does wayland fix? Application security layers? What makes you think a keylogger is the most important problem with a UNIX system? Hackers today go after Session Tokens. Something wayland doesn't protect against. Ask any Discord user what a Session Token theft can mean. Now apply that to any website you could visit. Nobody needs your screen time, nobody needs your keystrokes. All they need is your credentials and a last session token and your account is history. Compromise a website and that's all you need. It's called a Man-In-The-Middle attack. It's one of the hardest attacks to defend against in information security if you don't understand the vector used. The worst part is, while it can be the fastest to stop, it's the hardest to detect. No security layer for an application can prevent it. It's not part of an app. No antivirus can stop it. Once the site has been accessed and you've logged in, it's too late. It doesn't matter what your display manager protects against. Keylogging is dead.

Even the xz situation involved around attacking OpenSSH, systemd, and the kernel command line. The absolute worst place to have an attack. Not the display manager. Display manager wouldn't have been needed to glean every file off a user account, decrypt any needed, and then that's it. Everything is stolen and diaplay manager bypassed entirely. No keylogging needed.

Sure, there are BETTER attack vectors that can do MORE damage. But that's like saying to not worry about the open window because the door is locked. So sure, no big attacks have used keyloggers or screen grabs, but that doesn't mean that they can't. It could just be one asshole targeting a specific person. It doesn't matter. It's a hole that should be filled instead of everyone just walking around and ignoring it.

X11 is hugely monolithic and starts to fail the UNIX philosophy you love so much. It does not do one thing and do it well - it does many things mediocre.

So, it is possible, and the rest of the VMs are lagging behind. Sounds like laziness on the part of the rest of the VM devs.

Again, you didn't read. QEmu without VFIO and IOMMU and a secondary GPU doesn't work well still with wayland. An emulated GPU is still done on the CPU, in software. Software accelerated wayland, which uses either OpenGL or Vulkan, is not exactly fast on software. Surprisingly, X11 DDX is fast. Maybe because it was written to work with both software and hardware with minimal impact upon either. Guess that makes it a superior design for being older. After all if it works better it must be better.

Did I say it worked well? No. I said it was possible. Making it work well is the job of the application developer. Not Wayland's fault that most VMs are trash.

This is a FreeBSD problem. But also, FreeBSD is kind of bad, at least as a desktop. It's fine in certain environments.

Works fine as a desktop for some of us using it for various tasks and workflows. Maybe instead of dunking on other systems, try using them.

I have. FreeBSD is workable for various tasks and workflows. So is MS-DOS. But that doesn't make them good general desktop experiences.

@reaperx7
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X11 is hugely monolithic and starts to fail the UNIX philosophy you love so much. It does not do one thing and do it well - it does many things mediocre.

Now here's the problem with your interpretation of the UNiX philosophy. "Write programs that one thing and does it well."

You see X11 isn't just programs. It's also libraries, runtimes, protocols, and other things, not just applications. In fact X actually has very few applications, so the "programs" X11 contains does do what they were designed to do. Everything else is handled externally from X by Window Managers, Compositors, and other applications from external sources. Some of which even replace parts of X with their own servers. Yes X is monolithic, but outside the few provided servers, there are very few actual "programs" in X. Doug Mclroy was very specific when he said "programs". Yeah, you have a cluster of libraries, drivers, runtimes, protocols, etc. but those aren't programs. Those are building blocks.

Your and others logic X does things poorly or even mediocre is very misleading. What you place blame on isn't so much X itself. You seem to be a KDE user, but here's the thing... When you launch KDE, the actual Xserver program passes off all the rendering, composition, and handling to KDE's internal Xserver implementation kwm. At that point, only the libraries of x11 are utilized. All your claims that X is doing things "poorly"... isn't even X11's fault here. Even then X itself is just a basic reference implementation. I think the only WM that actually uses X is twm, which itself is a reference wm implementation. The fault for doing things poorly to mediocre, is then the blame of KDE. Guess what? KDE is even more monolithic and has many more programs than even X11 has. This where we keep saying, all of you guys blaming X are deflecting blame from the real culprits... the add-on Window managers and their implementation of X internally.

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 24, 2026

Screen sharing works just fine on Wayland, if the software …

You realize yourself that you just wrote that Wayland breaks applications, right?

Wrong. Being lazy and failing to update your shit break applications.

So Wayland causes programs to break when other programs update and puts maintenance load on developers.

That’s the worst kind of volatile infrastructure and a major contributor to FLOSS maintainer burnout.

Wayland makes other software volatile: after an update, things are broken. And complex tools are the ones most likely to get broken.

Except that there are people who continue to work on X11. This was the second false statement.

(snip stuff contradicted by the end) … there is an XLibre fork.

Which is continuing to work on X11.

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 24, 2026

I think the only WM that actually uses X is twm, which itself is a reference wm implementation.

There is also exwm which just speaks xcb via xelb. It turns Emacs into a full X11 window manager.

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