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Think twice about Wayland. It breaks everything!

Think twice before abandoning X11. Wayland breaks everything!

tl;dr: Wayland is not "the future", it is merely an incompatible alternative to the established standard with a different set of priorities and goals.

Wayland breaks everything! It is binary incompatible, provides no clear transition path with 1:1 replacements for everything in X11, and is even philosophically incompatible with X11. Hence, if you are interested in existing applications to "just work" without the need for adjustments, then you may be better off avoiding Wayland.

Wayland solves no issues I have but breaks almost everything I need. Even the most basic, most simple things (like xkill) - in this case with no obvious replacement. And usually it stays broken, because the Wayland folks mostly seem to care about Automotive, Gnome, maybe KDE - and alienating everyone else (e.g., people using just an X11 window manager or something like GNUstep) in the process.

Feature comparison

Please do fact-check and suggest corrections/improvements below. Maybe this table should find its home in a Wiki, so that everyone could easily collaborate. I'm just a bit fearful of vandalism... ideas?

✅ Supported ⚠️ Available with limitations ❌ Not available or only available on some systems (requires particular compositors or additional software which may not be present on every system)

Functionality Xorg Wayland
Performance ✅ Best (DistroWatch) ⚠️ Worse (DistroWatch)
Power consumption ? ?
RAM usage ✅ ~150 MB lower (Phoronix) ⚠️ ~150 MB higher (Phoronix)
Nvidia GPUs ✅ Well supported by proprietary Nvidia driver, also older hardware (open source driver Nouveau never worked satisfactorily) ⚠️ Only recent hardware
Multi-monitor ✅ Supported via XRandR, Xinerama (TheServerHost, KDE Blog) ✅ Stable, dynamic hotplug, theoretically better (debatable, comment) multi-monitor support (KDE Blog, CBT Nuggets)
Multi-resolution Multi-screen Support ✅ Can be done (tedu); mixed refresh rates (guiodic, Reddit) ✅ Per-output resolutions and per-output scaling with sharp rendering (CBT Nuggets, EndeavourOS Forum)
Cropping and Scaling ✅ Per monitor with XRandR (xrandr manpage) wp_viewporter, wp_fractional_scale_manager_v1, per-window ("surface") cropping (Wayland Protos, KDE Dev) - but applications can be blurry
Screen Recording / Capture ✅ Supported via X APIs; easy screen & window recording (Xlib Manual, OBS Wiki) ❌ Not natively available—wlr-screencopy and/or ext-image-copy-capture can be used without Portals but may not be present on every system. Otherwise requires Screencast Portal, which may not be present on every system (GNOME Docs, PipeWire Portal FAQ).
Input Devices / Event Routing XInput, XInput2, global intercept (XInput2 Docs) ❌ Input routed only to focused window ("surface"), no global interception (Wayland FAQ, Wayland Security)
Input Injection ✅ Via XTEST, XSendEvent (XTEST Spec) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (libei GH, KDE Input) . Workaround: /dev/uinput should work everywhere.
Global Hotkeys / Key Grabs XGrabKey()/XGrabButton() (Xlib Docs) ❌ Not natively available—requires Global Shortcuts Portal, which may not be present on every system (Portal Docs, KDE)
Window Positioning / Stacking ✅ Clients move/resize windows (Xlib Ref) ❌ Only compositor controls window positioning (Wayland FAQ, KDE Dev), 2 Years Later Wayland Is Still Debating A Basic Feature
Clipboard Access ✅ Full/explicit, ICCCM selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop / Copy and Paste ✅ Xdnd, Motif (Xdnd Spec), Motif (Motif DND) ⚠️ wl_data_offer, wl_data_device_manager (Wayland Protos, KDE Drag&Drop) but implementations are flaky, especially when dragging between X11 and Wayland applications
Touch / Gesture Support XInput2 (XInput Multi-Touch) wl_touch, gestures via zwp_pointer_gestures_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Tablet Support XInput2 (libinput Tablet) zwp_tablet_manager_v2 (Wayland Protos)
Remote Display / Network Transparency ✅ X11 protocol, SSH forwarding (OpenBSD FAQ, XForwarding) ❌ Not natively available—requires Remote Desktop Portal, which may not be present on every system (Wayland FAQ)
Screen Configuration XRandR direct (xrandr manpage) ❌ Only compositor can set layout; clients have no access (KDE Dev). Supported by some compositors which may not be present on every system via wlr-output-management and associated tools like wlr-randr.
Global menus ✅ Works ❌ Not natively available—requires qt_extended_surface set_generic_property which may not be present on every system
Window Management Hints (size, position) XSetWMHints, XSetNormalHints (ICCCM) ❌ Position not supported, only size
Window Title / Icon Name XSetWMName, XSetIconName (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_title/set_icon (xdg-shell)
Window State (iconic, withdrawn, etc.) XSetWMState (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed to clients; handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Protocols (WM_DELETE_WINDOW) ✅ ICCCM, WM_DELETE_WINDOW (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.close (xdg-shell)
Window Class / Instance XSetClassHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Transience (dialogs, popups) XSetTransientForHint (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_parent (xdg-shell)
Input Focus (active window) XSetInputFocus (Xlib Ref) ❌ Managed by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Selections ✅ Selections (ICCCM) ❌ Not natively available—requires Clipboard Portal, which may not be present on every system (Clipboard Portal, Wayland FAQ)
Drag and Drop ✅ Motif/Xdnd (Xdnd Spec) ✅ Native protocol (Wayland/Drag&Drop)
Window Grouping XSetWMHints group (ICCCM) ❌ No concept/protocol for grouping (Wayland FAQ)
Input Model / Input Hint ✅ Input model hints (ICCCM) ❌ Not exposed/natively supported (Wayland FAQ)
Window Manager Communication ✅ ICCCM client-to-WM (ICCCM) ❌ No standard protocol (Wayland FAQ)
Colormap / Visual hints ✅ Colormap per ICCCM (ICCCM) ⚠️ Handled by compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Icon Pixmap / Bitmap ✅ ICCCM icon hints (ICCCM) xdg_toplevel.set_icon (xdg-shell)
Urgency Hint XUrgencyHint (ICCCM) ❌ Not standardized; up to compositor (Wayland FAQ)
Window Shade (roll up/down) WM_STATE (mapped/unmapped state) ❌ Not supported
Window Always On Top (z-order) ✅ Applications can request stacking/z-order via WM_HINTS, window group, _NET_WM_STATE_ABOVE (EWMH) ❌ Not supported
Exclusive Display Control / DRM Leasing ⚠️ No protocol, possible with libdrm (libdrm) wp_drm_lease_v1 (Wayland Protos)
Transparency / Compositing ⚠️ With composite extension/compton/picom (wiki.archlinux) ✅ Built-in; always composited (Wayland FAQ)
Color Management ⚠️ Apps/loaders like xiccd (XCM docs) wp-color-manager-v1 (Wayland Protos)
VSync / Tear-free Rendering ⚠️ Inconsistent, needs correct driver/config (AskUbuntu) ✅ Guaranteed by compositor; always tear-free (Wayland FAQ)
Security / App Isolation ⚠️ Via extensions, e.g., Xnamespace extension (The Register) ⚠️ Wayland tries to separate applications from each other. As a result, applications can't do many things ("We're treated like hostile threat actors on our own workstations")
Click into a window to terminate the application xkill ❌ Not natively available—some compositors may have proprietary mechanisms, which may not be present on every system
Click into a window to see its metadata xprop ❌ Not supported
Set and get metadata (properties) on windows to exchange information regarding windows ✅ X Atoms (Docs) ❌ Not supported
One window server used by virtually all desktop environments and distributions ✅ Xorg (and Xlibre) ❌ Every desktop environment comes with a different compositor, which behaves differently, supports different features and has different bugs

Status update

Update 06/2025: X11 is alive and well, despite what Red Hat wants you to believe. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver revitalizes the Xorg X11 server as a community project under new leadership.

And Red Hat wanted to silence it.


As 2024 is winding down:

For the record, even in the latest Raspberry Pi OS you still can't drag a file from inside a zip file onto the desktop for it to be extracted. So drag-and-drop is still broken for me.

And Qt move() on a window still doesn't work like it does on all other desktop platforms (and the Wayland folks think that is good).

And global menus still don't work (outside of not universally implemented things like qt_extended_surface set_generic_property).

Wayland issues

The Wayland project seems to operate like they were starting a greenfield project, whereas at the same time they try to position Wayland as "the X11 successor", which would clearly require a lot of thought about not breaking, or at least providing a smooth upgrade path for, existing software.

In fact, it is merely an incompatible alternative, and not even one that has (nor wants to have) feature parity (missing features). And unlike X11 (the X Window System), Wayland protocol designers actively avoid the concept of "windows" (making up incomprehensible words like "xdg_toplevel" instead).

DO NOT USE A WAYLAND SESSION! Let Wayland not destroy everything and then have other people fix the damage it caused. Or force more Red Hat/Gnome components (glib, Portals, Pipewire) on everyone!

Please add more examples to the list.

Wayland seems to be made by people who do not care for existing software. They assume everyone is happy to either rewrite everything or to just use Gnome on Linux (rather than, say, twm with ROX Filer on NetBSD).

Edit: When I wrote the above, I didn't really realize what Wayland even was, I just noticed that some distributions (like Fedora) started pushing it onto me and things didn't work properly there. Today I realize that you can't "install Wayland", because unlike Xorg, there is not one "Wayland display server" but actually every desktop envrironment has its own. And maybe "the Wayland folks" don't "only care about Gnome", but then, any fix that is done in Gnome's Wayland implementation isn't automatically going to benefit all users of Wayland-based software, and possibly isn't even the implementation "the Wayland folks" would necessarily recommend.

Edit 12/2023: If something wants to replace X11 for desktop computers (such as professional Unix workstations), then it better support all needed features (and key concepts, like windows) for that use case. That people also have displays on their fridge doesn't matter the least bit in that context of discussion. Let's propose the missing Wayland protocols for full X11 feature parity.

Edit 08/2024: "Does Wayland becoming the defacto standard display server for Linux serve to marginalize BSD?" https://fossforce.com/2024/07/the-unintended-consequences-linuxs-wayland-adoption-will-have-on-bsd/

Wayland is broken by design

  • A crash in the window manager takes down all running applications
  • You cannot run applications as root
  • You cannot do a lot of things that you can do in Xorg by design
  • There is not one /usr/bin/wayland display server application that is desktop environment agnostic and is used by everyone (unlike with Xorg)
  • It offloads a lot of work to each and every window manager. As a result, the same basic features get implemented differently in different window managers, with different behaviors and bugs - so what works on desktop environment A does not necessarily work in desktop environment B (e.g., often you hear that something "works in Wayland", even though it only really works on Gnome and KDE, not in all Wayland implementations). This summarizes it very well: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

Apparently the Wayland project doesn't even want to be "X.org 2.0", and doesn't want to provide a commonly used implementation of a compositor that could be used by everyone: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233. Yet this would imho be required if they want to make it into a worthwile "successor" that would have any chance of ever fixing the many Wayland issues at the core.

Wayland breaks screen recording applications

  • MaartenBaert/ssr#431 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016, no resolution ("I guess they use a non-standard GNOME interface for this")
  • https://github.com/mhsabbagh/green-recorder ❌ ("I am no longer interested in working with things like ffmpeg/wayland/GNOME's screencaster or solving the issues related to them or why they don't work")
  • vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG#51 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("I have now decided that there will be no Wayland support for the time being. Reason, there is no budget for it. Let's see how it looks in a year or two.") - This is the key problem. Wayland breaks everything and then expects others to fix the wreckage it caused on their own expense.
  • obsproject/obs-studio#2471 ❌ broken since at least 7 Mar 2020. ("Wayland is unsupported at this time", "There isn't really something that can just be easily changed. Wayland provides no capture APIs")
  • There is a workaround for OBS Studio that requires a obs-xdg-portal plugin (which is known to be Red Hat/Flatpak-centric, GNOME-centric, "perhaps" works with other desktops)
  • phw/peek#1191 ❌ broken since 14 Jan 2023. Peek, a screen recording tool, has been abandoned by its developerdue to a number of technical challenges, mostly with Gtk and Wayland ("Many of these have to do with how Wayland changed the way applications are being handled")

As of February 2024, screen recording is still broken utterly on Wayland with the vast majority of tools. Proof

Workaround: Find a Wayland compositor that supports the wlr-screencopy-unstable-v1 protocol and use wf-recorder -a. The default compositor in Raspberry Pi OS (Wayfire) does, but the default compositor in Ubuntu doesn't. (That's the worst part of Wayland: Unlike with Xorg, it always depends on the particular Wayand compositor what works and what is broken. Is there even one that supports everything?)

Wayland breaks screen sharing applications

  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#2350 ❌ broken since 3 Jan 2018
  • jitsi/jitsi-meet#6389 ❌ broken since 24 Jan 2016 ("Closing since there is nothing we can do from the Jitsi Meet side.") See? Wayland breaks stuff and leaves application developers helpless and unable to fix the breakage, even if they wanted.

NOTE: As of November 2023, screen sharing in Chromium using Jitsi Meet is still utterly broken, both in Raspberry Pi OS Desktop, and in a KDE Plasma installation, albeit with different behavior. Note that Pipewire, Portals and whatnot are installed, and even with them it does not work.

Wayland breaks automation software

sudo pkg install py37-autokey

This is an X11 application, and as such will not function 100% on 
distributions that default to using Wayland instead of Xorg.

Wayland breaks Gnome-Global-AppMenu (global menus for Gnome)

Wayland broke global menus with KDE platformplugin

Good news: According to this report global menus now work with KDE platformplugin as of 4/2022

Wayland breaks global menus with non-KDE Qt platformplugins

Wayland breaks AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/03/unsetting-qt_qpa_platform-environment-variable-by-default/ ❌ broke AppImages that don't ship a special Wayland Qt plugin. "This affects proprietary applications, FLOSS applications bundled as appimages, FLOSS applications bundled as flatpaks and not distributed by KDE and even the Qt installer itself. In my opinion this is a showstopper for running a Wayland session." However, there is a workaround: "AppImages which ship just the XCB plugin will automatically fallback to running in xwayland mode" (see below).

Wayland breaks Redshift

Update 2023: Some Wayland compositors (such as Wayfire) now support wlr_gamma_control_unstable_v1, see https://github.com/WayfireWM/wayfire/wiki/Tutorial#configuring-wayfire and sharpbracket/redshift#663. Does it work in all Wayland compositors though?

Wayland breaks global hotkeys

Wayland does not work for Xfce?

See below.

Wayland does not work properly on NVidia hardware?

Apparently Wayland relies on nouveau drivers for NVidia hardware. The nouveau driver has been giving unsatisfactory performance since its inception. Even clicking on the application starter icon in Gnome results in a stuttery animation. Only the proprietary NVidia driver results in full performance.

See below.

Update 2024: The situation might slowly be improving. It remains to be seen whether this will work well also for all existing old Nvidia hardware (that works well in Xorg).

Wayland does not work properly on Intel hardware

Wayland prevents GUI applications from running as root

  • https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1274451 ❌ broken since 22 Oct 2015 ("No this will only fix sudo for X11 applications. Running GUI code as root is still a bad idea." I absolutely detest it when software tries to prevent me from doing what some developer thinks is "a bad idea" but did not consider my use case, e.g., running truss for debugging on FreeBSD needs to run the application as root. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1323302 suggests it is not possible: "These sorts of security considerations are very much the way that "the Linux desktop" is going these days".)

Suggested solution

Wayland is biased toward Linux and breaks BSD

  • https://blog.netbsd.org/tnf/entry/wayland_on_netbsd_trials_and ❌ broken since 28 Sep 2020 ("Wayland is written with the assumption of Linux to the extent that every client application tends to #include <linux/input.h> because Wayland's designers didn't see the need to define a OS-neutral way to get mouse button IDs. (...) In general, Wayland is moving away from the modularity, portability, and standardization of the X server. (...) I've decided to take a break from this, since it's a fairly huge undertaking and uphill battle. Right now, X11 combined with a compositor like picom or xcompmgr is the more mature option."

Wayland complicates server-side window decorations

  • https://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2018/01/server-side-decorations-and-wayland/ ❌ FUD since at least 27 January 2018 ("I heard that GNOME is currently trying to lobby for all applications implementing client-side decorations. One of the arguments seems to be that CSD is a must on Wayland. " ... "I’m burnt from it and are not interested in it any more.") Server-side window decorations are what make the title bar and buttons of all windows on a system consistent. They are a must have_ for a consistent system, so that applications written e.g., Gtk will not look entirely alien on e.g., a Qt based desktop, and to enforce that developers cannot place random controls into window titles where they do not belong. Client-side decorations, on the other hand, are destroying uniformity and consistency, put additional burden on application and toolkit developers, and allow e.g., GNOME developers to put random controls (that do not belong there) into window titles (like buttons), hence making it more difficult to achieve a uniform look and feel for all applications regardless of the toolkit being used.

Red Hat employee Matthias Clasen ("I work at the Red Hat Desktop team... I am actually a manager there... the people who do the actual work work for me") expicitly stated "Client-side everything" as a principle, even though the protocol doesn't enforce it: "Fonts, Rendering, Nested Windows, Decorations. "It also gives the design more freedom to use the titlebar space, which is something our designers appreciate" (sic). Source

Wayland breaks windows rasing/activating themselves

Wayland breaks RescueTime

Wayland breaks window managers

Apparently Wayland (at least as implemented in KWin) does not respect EWMH protocols, and breaks other command line tools like wmctrl, xrandr, xprop, etc. Please see the discussion below for details.

Wayland requires JWM, TWM, XDM, IceWM,... to reimplement Xorg-like functionality

  • Screen recording and casting
  • Querying of the mouse position, keyboard LED state, active window position or name, moving windows (xdotool, wmctrl)
  • Global shortcuts
  • System tray
  • Input Method support/editor (IME)
  • Graphical settings management (i.e. tools like xranrd)
  • Fast user switching/multiple graphical sessions
  • Session configuration including but not limited to 1) input devices 2) monitors configuration including refresh rate / resolution / scaling / rotation and power saving 3) global shortcuts
  • HDR/deep color support
  • VRR (variable refresh rate)
  • Disabling input devices (xinput alternative)

As it currently stands minor WMs and DEs do not even intend to support Wayland given the sheer complexity of writing all the code required to support the above features. You do not expect JWM, TWM, XDM or even IceWM developers to implement all the featured outlined in ^1.

Wayland breaks _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR protocol

  • https://git.521000.bestelectron/electron#33226 ("skipTaskbar has no effect on Wayland. Currently Electron uses _NET_WM_STATE_SKIP_TASKBAR to tell the WM to hide an app from the taskbar, and this works fine on X11 but there's no equivalent mechanism in Wayland." Workarounds are only available for some desktops including GNOME and KDE Plasma.) ❌ broken since March 10, 2022

Wayland breaks xclip

xclip is a command line utility that is designed to run on any system with an X11 implementation. It provides an interface to X selections ("the clipboard"). Apparently Wayland isn't compatible to the X11 clipboard either.

This is another example that the Wayland requires everyone to change components and take on additional work just because Wayland is incompatible to what we had working for all those years.

Wayland breaks SUDO_ASKPASS

Wayland breaks auto-type in password managers

Wayland breaks X11 atoms

X11 atoms can be used to store information on windows. For example, a file manager might store the path that the window represents in an X11 atom, so that it (and other applications) can know for which paths there are open file manager windows. Wayland is not compatible to X11 atoms, resulting in all software that relies on them to be broken until specifically ported to Wayland (which, in the case of legacy software, may well be never).

Possible workaround (to be verified): Use the (Qt proprietary?) Extended Surface Wayland protocol casually mentioned in https://blog.broulik.de/2016/10/global-menus-returning/ "which allows you to set (and read?) arbitrary properties on a window". Is it the set_generic_property from https://github.com/qt/qtwayland/blob/dev/src/extensions/surface-extension.xml?

Wayland breaks games

Games are developed for X11. And if you run a game on Wayland, performance is subpar due to things like forced vsync. Only recently, some Wayland implementations (like KDE KWin) let you disable that.

Wayland breaks xdotool

(Details to be added; apparently no 1:1 drop-in replacement available?)

Wayland breaks xkill

xkill (which I use on a regular basis) does not work with Wayland applications.

What is the equivalent for Wayland applications?

Wayland breaks screensavers

Is it true that Wayland also breaks screensavers? https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/

Wayland breaks setting the window position

Other platforms (Windows, Mac, other destop environments) can set the window position on the screen, so all cross-platform toolkits and applications expect to do the same on Wayland, but Wayland can't (doesn't want to) do it.

  • PCSX2/pcsx2#10179 PCX2 (Playstation 2 Emulator) ❌ broken since 2023-10-25 ("Disables Wayland, it's super broken/buggy in basically every scenario. KDE isn't too buggy, GNOME is a complete disaster.")

  • Wayland might allow the compositor (not: the application) to set window positions, but that means that as an application author, I can't do anything but wait for KDE to implement https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15329 - and even then, it will only work under KDE, not Gnome or elsewhere. Big step backward compared to X11!

Wayland breaks color mangement

Apparently color management as of 2023 (well over a decade of Wayland development) is still in the early "thinking" stage, all the while Wayland is already being pushed on people as if it was a "X11 successor".

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pq/color-and-hdr/-/blob/main/doc/color-management-model.md

Wayland breaks DRM leasing

According to Valve, "DRM leasing is the process which allows SteamVR to take control of your VR headset's display in order to present low-latency VR content".

Wayland breaks In-home Streaming

Wayland breaks NetWM

Extended Window Manager Hints, a.k.a. NetWM, is an X Window System standard for the communication between window managers and applications

Wayland breaks window icons

Update 6/2024: Looks like this will get unbroken thanks to xdg_toplevel_icon_manager_v1, so that QWindow::setIcon will work again. If, and that's a big if, all compositors will support it. At least KDE is on it.

Wayland breaks drag and drop

Wayland breaks ./windowmanager --replace

  • Many window managers have a --replace argument, but Wayland compositors break this convention.

Wayland breaks Xpra

Xpra is an open-source multi-platform persistent remote display server and client for forwarding applications and desktop screens.

  • Under Xpra a context menu cannot be used: it opens and closes automatically before you can even move the mouse on it. "It's not just GDK, it's the Wayland itself. They decided to break existing applications and expect them to change how they work." (Xpra-org/xpra#4246) ❌ broken since 2024-06-01

Wayland breaks multi desktop docks

  • "Unfortunately Wayland is not designed to support multi desktop dock projects. This is why each DE using Wayland is building their own custom docks. Plus there is a lot of complexity to support Wayland based apps and also merge that data with apps running in Xwayland. A dock isn't useful unless it knows about every window and app running on the system." zquestz/plank-reloaded#70 ❌ broken since 2025-06-10

Xwayland breaks window resizing

Workarounds

  • Users: Refuse to use Wayland sessions. Uninstall desktop environments/Linux distributions that only ship Wayland sessions. Avoid Wayland-only applications (such as PreSonus Studio One) (potential workaround: run in https://github.com/cage-kiosk/cage)
  • Application developers: Enforce running applications on X11/XWayland (like LibrePCB does as of 11/2023)

Examples of Wayland being forced on users

This is exactly the kind of behavior this gist seeks to prevent.

Summary what is wrong with Wayland, by one of its contributors

image

Source: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/179#note_2965661

History

  • 2008: Wayland was started by krh (while at Red Hat)
  • End of 2012: Wayland 1.0
  • Early 2013: GNOME begins Wayland porting

Source: "Where's Wayland?" by Matthias Clasen - Flock 2014

A decade later... Red Hat wants to force Wayland upon everyone, removing support for Xorg

What now?

Following the professional application KiCad's advice:

Recommendations for Users

For Professional Use

If you use KiCad professionally or require a reliable, full-featured experience, we strongly recommend:

Use X11-based desktop environments such as:

XFCE with X11 KDE Plasma with X11 MATE

Traditional desktop environments that maintain X11 support

Install X11-compatible display managers like LightDM or KDM instead of GDM if your distribution defaults to Wayland-only

Choose distributions that maintain X11 support - some distributions are moving to Wayland-only configurations that may not meet your needs

Source: https://www.kicad.org/blog/2025/06/KiCad-and-Wayland-Support/#

Similarly, for Krite: https://www.davidrevoy.com/article1030/debian-12-kde-plasma-2024-install-guide#d-krita-as-appimage

References

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 24, 2026

X11 is hugely monolithic and starts to fail the UNIX philosophy you love so much. It does not do one thing and do it well - it does many things mediocre.

Now here's the problem with your interpretation of the UNiX philosophy. "Write programs that one thing and does it well."

You see X11 isn't just programs. It's also libraries, runtimes, protocols, and other things, not just applications. In fact X actually has very few applications, so the "programs" X11 contains does do what they were designed to do. Everything else is handled externally from X by Window Managers, Compositors, and other applications from external sources. Some of which even replace parts of X with their own servers. Yes X is monolithic, but outside the few provided servers, there are very few actual "programs" in X. Doug Mclroy was very specific when he said "programs". Yeah, you have a cluster of libraries, drivers, runtimes, protocols, etc. but those aren't programs. Those are building blocks.

Your and others logic X does things poorly or even mediocre is very misleading. What you place blame on isn't so much X itself. You seem to be a KDE user, but here's the thing... When you launch KDE, the actual Xserver program passes off all the rendering, composition, and handling to KDE's internal Xserver implementation kwm. At that point, only the libraries of x11 are utilized. All your claims that X is doing things "poorly"... isn't even X11's fault here. Even then X itself is just a basic reference implementation. I think the only WM that actually uses X is twm, which itself is a reference wm implementation. The fault for doing things poorly to mediocre, is then the blame of KDE. Guess what? KDE is even more monolithic and has many more programs than even X11 has. This where we keep saying, all of you guys blaming X are deflecting blame from the real culprits... the add-on Window managers and their implementation of X internally.

This is still a weak defense. Yes, I use KDE primarily, now, but that hasn't always been the case. It wasn't any better on any other DE or the other DEs had different problems. When a lot of distros only offer KDE and GNOME by default, I'll take KDE everyday because fuck GNOME and it's entire design.

@reaperx7
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X11 is hugely monolithic and starts to fail the UNIX philosophy you love so much. It does not do one thing and do it well - it does many things mediocre.

Now here's the problem with your interpretation of the UNiX philosophy. "Write programs that one thing and does it well."
You see X11 isn't just programs. It's also libraries, runtimes, protocols, and other things, not just applications. In fact X actually has very few applications, so the "programs" X11 contains does do what they were designed to do. Everything else is handled externally from X by Window Managers, Compositors, and other applications from external sources. Some of which even replace parts of X with their own servers. Yes X is monolithic, but outside the few provided servers, there are very few actual "programs" in X. Doug Mclroy was very specific when he said "programs". Yeah, you have a cluster of libraries, drivers, runtimes, protocols, etc. but those aren't programs. Those are building blocks.
Your and others logic X does things poorly or even mediocre is very misleading. What you place blame on isn't so much X itself. You seem to be a KDE user, but here's the thing... When you launch KDE, the actual Xserver program passes off all the rendering, composition, and handling to KDE's internal Xserver implementation kwm. At that point, only the libraries of x11 are utilized. All your claims that X is doing things "poorly"... isn't even X11's fault here. Even then X itself is just a basic reference implementation. I think the only WM that actually uses X is twm, which itself is a reference wm implementation. The fault for doing things poorly to mediocre, is then the blame of KDE. Guess what? KDE is even more monolithic and has many more programs than even X11 has. This where we keep saying, all of you guys blaming X are deflecting blame from the real culprits... the add-on Window managers and their implementation of X internally.

This is still a weak defense. Yes, I use KDE primarily, now, but that hasn't always been the case. It wasn't any better on any other DE or the other DEs had different problems. When a lot of distros only offer KDE and GNOME by default, I'll take KDE everyday because fuck GNOME and it's entire design.

Okay so now we've established you're using and referencing kwm, not X. So if kwm, KDE's X11 server, has a problem, who's fault is it?

@reaperx7
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Screen sharing works just fine on Wayland, if the software …

You realize yourself that you just wrote that Wayland breaks applications, right?

Wrong. Being lazy and failing to update your shit break applications.

So Wayland causes programs to break when other programs update and puts maintenance load on developers.
That’s the worst kind of volatile infrastructure and a major contributor to FLOSS maintainer burnout.
Wayland makes other software volatile: after an update, things are broken. And complex tools are the ones most likely to get broken.

Software developers have had almost 10 YEARS to get their shit together with Wayland BEFORE X11 started getting dropped. They chose to ignore it until distros started defaulting to Wayland and dropping X11, or are just hoping XWayland will cover their lazy asses.

Except that there are people who continue to work on X11. This was the second false statement.

(snip stuff contradicted by the end) … there is an XLibre fork.

Which is continuing to work on X11.

Technically, no. And XLibre will probably never even reach any form of maturity or adoption. I do commend the people working on it however, because at least they aren't sitting around in an echo chamber complaining and doing nothing. They're at least trying to do something which is more than I can say for anyone here.

Already is being adopted because it works and it allows many distributions to not upheave a majority of users who either can't use or won't use wayland. Just because big box distribution XYZ doesn't use it, doesn't mean hobbyist XYZ won't. From my experience, big box distributions are the absolute worst dogshit distributions with the worst levels of stability and performance.

Also big box XYZ distributions have been one the biggest problem causers. Remember xz? Every big box distribution all had the exact same patch.

Hobbyist distributions like Arch, Slackware, etc all avoided this.

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 25, 2026

Screen sharing works just fine on Wayland, if the software …

You realize yourself that you just wrote that Wayland breaks applications, right?

Wrong. Being lazy and failing to update your shit break applications.

So Wayland causes programs to break when other programs update and puts maintenance load on developers.
That’s the worst kind of volatile infrastructure and a major contributor to FLOSS maintainer burnout.

Wayland makes other software volatile: after an update, things are broken. And complex tools are the ones most likely to get broken.

Software developers have had almost 10 YEARS to get their shit together with Wayland BEFORE X11 started getting dropped. They chose to ignore it until distros started defaulting to Wayland and dropping X11, or are just hoping XWayland will cover their lazy asses.

So you know that Wayland breaks other software, but you resort to calling people lazy because they do something else than what you tell them to do.

Reading your insults I understand better why some devs just removed Wayland support again, even though they had already written it.

And 10 years is wrong. Wayland did want to be ready 10 years ago (that was their promise), but it was a broken mess back then (Ubuntu only started to offer it as option in 2017). Why should anyone invest their volunteer time into supporting it when they have other things they could do instead -- like shipping actual improvements to the software they build or maintain?

“This software works great, so let’s pull the rug from under them and force them to invest lots of work to adapt to something different just to avoid the breakage we cause.” -- the effect of Wayland.

But you’re right that XWayland was a trap. Too many fell into it and accepted Wayland under the premise that existing software would migrate before Wayland would make the move to destroy it. Though they should have learned from the Python3 fiasco that this does not work.

@reaperx7
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Those who fail to learn from history or acknowledge it are doomed to repeat it.

@mrcmunir
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The main problem for Wayland it's the compositors don't take flexible support i.e EGLStream into account.
Only GBM.
And if you want compatibility and longevity, you should consider EGLStream for old NVIDIA. Linux was born to be durable, not to create fragmentation between different hardware.
For example with wetson EGLstream support https://github.com/OE4T/meta-tegra/blob/kirkstone-l4t-r32.7.x/recipes-graphics/wayland/weston/0002-gl-renderer-Add-EGL-client-support-for-EGLStream-fra.patch for Tegra TX1/TX2 .
It's needed in any Wayland compositor

Otherwise, you're actually never considered user option so stuck with X11 .

@reaperx7
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That's the problem. Nobody wants uniformity with anything in UNIX. There's several different wayland implementations across the board and none of them all use a single standard drawing API that's friendly with software acceleration or universal to every system wayland has a foothold on. Fragmentation is the largest problem the entirety of the FOSS Ecosystem.

GNU/Linux, FreeBSD, and orher OSes are all small and fairly standard, but outside of that nobody wants to follow a single UNIX specification style system that is universal and uniform.

@guiodic
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guiodic commented Apr 25, 2026

Software developers have had almost 10 YEARS to get their shit together with Wayland BEFORE X11 started getting dropped. They chose to ignore it until distros started defaulting to Wayland and dropping X11, or are just hoping XWayland will cover their lazy asses.

Most of Wayland-related issues cannot be resolved by application developers; they are problems with Wayland itself, or in some cases with specific implementations. It’s not laziness. These are baseless insults that show you don’t know what you’re talking about.

@guiodic
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guiodic commented Apr 25, 2026

X11 is hugely monolithic and starts to fail the UNIX philosophy you love so much. It does not do one thing and do it well - it does many things mediocre.

X11 does nothing. It is a protocol. But I imagine you meant Xorg. It isn’t monolithic; it’s a platform. On top of this platform, you can use your own window manager, your own compositor, and your own window decorator – which could even be three different programmes. Because it’s a platform that sits under the various WMs and DMs, you can even use the Xfce panel on KDE, if you like. Everything is completely modular and standardised. With Wayland, on the other hand, you have one massive program that does everything: Display Server, Window Manager, Compositor, Decorator and sometimes even the Shell (Gnome-Shell is a plugin for Mutter). The result is that even a single plugin can crash the entire desktop session.

@Slatepaws
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X11 is hugely monolithic and starts to fail the UNIX philosophy you love so much. It does not do one thing and do it well - it does many things mediocre.

X11 does nothing. It is a protocol. But I imagine you meant Xorg. It isn’t monolithic; it’s a platform. On top of this platform, you can use your own window manager, your own compositor, and your own window decorator – which could even be three different programmes. Because it’s a platform that sits under the various WMs and DMs, you can even use the Xfce panel on KDE, if you like. Everything is completely modular and standardised. With Wayland, on the other hand, you have one massive program that does everything: Display Server, Window Manager, Compositor, Decorator and sometimes even the Shell (Gnome-Shell is a plugin for Mutter). The result is that even a single plugin can crash the entire desktop session.

Add systemD to the mix, and there goes the entire system. Just like the old windows model pre 10.

@Bahbus
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Bahbus commented Apr 25, 2026

Okay so now we've established you're using and referencing kwm, not X. So if kwm, KDE's X11 server, has a problem, who's fault is it?

X11's. Plus, my move to KDE only came after X11 was dropped, so kwn is not the only implementation I have used.

Reading your insults I understand better why some devs just removed Wayland support again, even though they had already written it.

Because lots of devs are petty on top of being lazy.

And 10 years is wrong. Wayland did want to be ready 10 years ago (that was their promise), but it was a broken mess back then (Ubuntu only started to offer it as option in 2017). Why should anyone invest their volunteer time into supporting it when they have other things they could do instead -- like shipping actual improvements to the software they build or maintain?

Irrelevant. That's when Wayland started to be an option. What about the last 5 years? It ultimately doesn't matter. There has been time. It's easy to see which way the winds are blowing. Smart developers see this and are prepared. Lazy developers are caught with their pants down and start blaming others (like Wayland) for why their shit doesn't work.

Most of Wayland-related issues cannot be resolved by application developers; they are problems with Wayland itself, or in some cases with specific implementations. It’s not laziness. These are baseless insults that show you don’t know what you’re talking about.

So far, I haven't seen any real example that matters. The most commonly repeated things that I have read, and assume people care about most, is screen capture and global hotkeys. Screen capture is definitely still possible, because plenty of apps are still doing it and working, in Wayland, without issues. Global keybinds are nice but whatever.

X11 does nothing. It is a protocol. But I imagine you meant Xorg. It isn’t monolithic; it’s a platform.

Protocols and platforms can be monolithic.

@mrcmunir
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https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/merge_requests/1638
But When they kill hardware support and don't consider preserving the use of hardware that's less than 10 years old, for example, you can't blame developers apps for being lazy or skeptical about the proper implementation and direction of Wayland support :)

There's a saying, "Don't promote planned obsolescence," and perhaps it has greater acceptance, especially in open source .

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 25, 2026

https://invent.kde.org/plasma/kwin/-/merge_requests/1638 But When they kill hardware support and don't consider preserving the use of hardware that's less than 10 years old, for example, you can't blame developers apps for being lazy or skeptical about the proper implementation and direction of Wayland support :)

From the merge request: In practice the wayland session is borked for most of our users right now anyways with the egl-wayland + Qt issue.

So the users who thought “I’ll just accept the breakage of programs wayland brings and search for alternatives” will then stand in front of the pile of shards their system turned into. Because wayland is spreading the notion that breaking some systems is OK.

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 25, 2026

Reading your insults I understand better why some devs just removed Wayland support again, even though they had already written it.

Because lots of devs are petty on top of being lazy.

So someone who decides not to donate their volunteer time to tasks you want them to is lazy and someone who no longer provides their unpaid volunteer work to a system that causes observable damage is petty?

Smart developers see this and are prepared.

Smart developers usually expect other devs to learn from the communicated experiences of others. At least since the lessons learned by the BDFL of Python that includes not causing breakage left and right.

Wayland failed at that. Failed badly.

Even inkscape got broken, one of the FLOSS flagship projects. The inkscape devs are not lazy: they managed to make real inroads into creative industries. And wayland is actively threatening that.

Because the changes needed to get it to work on wayland caused a lot of related breakage -- down to crashes with plain copy-paste.

Those changes should never have been needed. They became necessary because Wayland devs failed at the requirements stage but pretended that this would not cause as many problems as it turned out to create. And others didn’t catch that early enough to say “that won’t be an advantage, we’ll stick with X11 and fund improving that”. The latter group includes me: I trusted the promises of those who push Wayland for far too long.

We cannot stand on the shoulders of giants if we constantly break old tools.

Most of Wayland-related issues cannot be resolved by application developers; they are problems with Wayland itself, or in some cases with specific implementations. It’s not laziness. These are baseless insults that show you don’t know what you’re talking about.

So far, I haven't seen any real example that matters. …

There’s a large list of real examples in the gist where we’re discussing this.

@reaperx7
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Reading your insults I understand better why some devs just removed Wayland support again, even though they had already written it.

Because lots of devs are petty on top of being lazy.

So someone who decides not to donate their volunteer time to tasks you want them to is lazy and someone who no longer provides their unpaid volunteer work to a system that causes observable damage is petty?

The problem with the wayland developers, not application developers, is you have too much political activism disguised as revolutionary development. Wayland, GNOME, FreeDesktops, Red Hat... We've all seen their posts on every social media platform and the aftermath of their actions. The blind hatred of establishment and practice to replace it with whims and the fad of the day. No regard for thoroughness, stability, or cleanliness.

@Roadhog360
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Most of Wayland-related issues cannot be resolved by application developers; they are problems with Wayland itself, or in some cases with specific implementations. It’s not laziness. These are baseless insults that show you don’t know what you’re talking about.

So far, I haven't seen any real example that matters. …

There’s a large list of real examples in the gist where we’re discussing this.

Hell, there is an example even just a few comments up about how Wayland's restrictions make OBS substantially more frustrating to use, by design.

@Arup65
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Arup65 commented Apr 26, 2026 via email

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Apr 26, 2026

Just installed Ubuntu 26.04 on an Ryzen 3900x with an Nvidia 1660. So far so good with the Brave browser as well as CLion working fine, but OBS installed via Snap as well as Flatpak crashes as soon as settings are touched. OIBS snap was working fine with 24.04 earlier under X.

Snaps are garbage bro. Ditch Ubuntu because almost all of their apps now are snap packages, and most have a lot of brokenness.

@Arup65
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Arup65 commented Apr 26, 2026 via email

@rpcarvalheira
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Reading your insults I understand better why some devs just removed Wayland support again, even though they had already written it.

Because lots of devs are petty on top of being lazy.

So someone who decides not to donate their volunteer time to tasks you want them to is lazy and someone who no longer provides their unpaid volunteer work to a system that causes observable damage is petty?

The problem with the wayland developers, not application developers, is you have too much political activism disguised as revolutionary development. Wayland, GNOME, FreeDesktops, Red Hat... We've all seen their posts on every social media platform and the aftermath of their actions. The blind hatred of establishment and practice to replace it with whims and the fad of the day. No regard for thoroughness, stability or cleanliness.

*Wayland is too political" category of nonsense. Okay snowflake, let me write in crayon for you: opensource is political wether you like it or not. You cannot say that FOSS is "free as in water" without understanding that this is a political statement. And, I don't know what you're accomplishing here, but whether it is because it is very "wokey" or not, most of these people doesn't earn a dime and also have to deal with entitled devs every single day, that just thinks they're always the smartest person on the room, the single man capable of any decision taking, the sole exceptional individual living.

You're free to offer your view, your solution, so that when it is mature, don't matter how long it takes, if it is better than the current option, everybody will migrate to it. And look, you don't even have to do it all alone, as you may just contribute in a already existing monolith that's been there for the last 20 years. This should help.

But hey, this is software development, systems age and gets deprecated, security veto stuff, vulnerabilities appear, technology evolves. There is NO stability. Tapes corrupted, disks get scratches, hardware gets nuked, software crashes.

The yoruba people have a saying, that in English should be something like "wisdom chases you, but you run faster". Your comment made me remember it. We don't have time to remember the past, feel stuck or emotional when questioning a technical point. We're engineers. There is no time for ranting because you're in grief in a daily meeting. Do you have the data that points that you're simply right? Can you prove it, or is it just arguments about "it worked in my machine" as bad engineers do? Will you stop with the nonsensical politics arguments or you'll keep acting as a teenager in love for the first time? I honestly enjoy older systems, but 486 support will become deprecated and this won't kill linux for these pcs. The same way that Wayland is not the death for them. If you're in FreeBSD, you can handle their shit. People on Ubuntu are far more than you and can't handle theirs. So, honestly, you don't matter in this decision because not only you're not an expert invited from many different distros and desktops, but there is a sparse number of engineers complaining about it. Most that did it with valid answers also presented solutions in Wayland repo.

The point is that it seems that you're doing political chess accusations because you're incapable of solving things by your own, but doesn't want people to take their decisions as well. This text is the aftermath of your own actions, learn to handle it. Wrote directly by one of those woke leftists you seem to hate.

@reaperx7
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reaperx7 commented Apr 26, 2026

Reading your insults I understand better why some devs just removed Wayland support again, even though they had already written it.

Because lots of devs are petty on top of being lazy.

So someone who decides not to donate their volunteer time to tasks you want them to is lazy and someone who no longer provides their unpaid volunteer work to a system that causes observable damage is petty?

The problem with the wayland developers, not application developers, is you have too much political activism disguised as revolutionary development. Wayland, GNOME, FreeDesktops, Red Hat... We've all seen their posts on every social media platform and the aftermath of their actions. The blind hatred of establishment and practice to replace it with whims and the fad of the day. No regard for thoroughness, stability or cleanliness.

*Wayland is too political" category of nonsense. Okay snowflake, let me write in crayon for you: opensource is political wether you like it or not. You cannot say that FOSS is "free as in water" without understanding that this is a political statement. And, I don't know what you're accomplishing here, but whether it is because it is very "wokey" or not, most of these people doesn't earn a dime and also have to deal with entitled devs every single day, that just thinks they're always the smartest person on the room, the single man capable of any decision taking, the sole exceptional individual living.

You're free to offer your view, your solution, so that when it is mature, don't matter how long it takes, if it is better than the current option, everybody will migrate to it. And look, you don't even have to do it all alone, as you may just contribute in a already existing monolith that's been there for the last 20 years. This should help.

But hey, this is software development, systems age and gets deprecated, security veto stuff, vulnerabilities appear, technology evolves. There is NO stability. Tapes corrupted, disks get scratches, hardware gets nuked, software crashes.

The yoruba people have a saying, that in English should be something like "wisdom chases you, but you run faster". Your comment made me remember it. We don't have time to remember the past, feel stuck or emotional when questioning a technical point. We're engineers. There is no time for ranting because you're in grief in a daily meeting. Do you have the data that points that you're simply right? Can you prove it, or is it just arguments about "it worked in my machine" as bad engineers do? Will you stop with the nonsensical politics arguments or you'll keep acting as a teenager in love for the first time? I honestly enjoy older systems, but 486 support will become deprecated and this won't kill linux for these pcs. The same way that Wayland is not the death for them. If you're in FreeBSD, you can handle their shit. People on Ubuntu are far more than you and can't handle theirs. So, honestly, you don't matter in this decision because not only you're not an expert invited from many different distros and desktops, but there is a sparse number of engineers complaining about it. Most that did it with valid answers also presented solutions in Wayland repo.

The point is that it seems that you're doing political chess accusations because you're incapable of solving things by your own, but doesn't want people to take their decisions as well. This text is the aftermath of your own actions, learn to handle it. Wrote directly by one of those woke leftists you seem to hate.

Oh look another wannabe downtalker coming in trying to act important with big words they dig out of Webster's Dictionary.

How about this "cornflake". The FOSS community for years was politically tolerant of either side because everyone could contribute. It was thanks people like you that everyone had to suddenly be "offended" by everything and anything just to "be offended". This reply is the aftermath of your own making because once again, another troll from the KDEdiots barges in, pukls out their soapbox, geabs a bullhorn, and wants to be heard like anyone cares.

I never have claimed to be working on much at all here genius. Why? Maybe because I actually have a job and real life that I don't get to go out on a George Soros funded protest while I spend my non-protesting hours at Starbucks with a duct taped together Thinkpad blogging about how I hate people who aren't like me because their not some color of the rainbow fruit loop. People like me actually contribute to society and the economy.

Let me tell you what I think of engineers. Many are pompous wannabe know-it-alls who with a narcissistic god complex who think they can do no wrong and the world should bow to them, but go out in public, and the paper tiger shows what grade of reject from from printer feeder tray they really are. These "engineers" are the least respected people in the IT industry because half the time, rhey want to willfully break stuff, never listen to bug reports because, once again, they can do no wrong, and then lastly we hate dealing with engineers because getting a fix made always requires an IT programmer on a team to waste their time figuring out how to patch out some nonsense function that some egg head put in the code because it was "a good idea at the time" and then recompile it and pray it works because genius engineer forgot to document things properly or didn't bother to.

We in IT have a saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". We're the people who have to deal with broken features for end users, package deployments that require rollbacks or patches that we don't want to have to use, but are forced to. I spend upwards of 9 hours a day off a 12 hour shift at my job, testing releases from upstream sources, documenting problems, sending stuff over to the programmers, watching a few hours or days for a patch to be made, before pushing a working package to the in-house distribution server to manage and push to all our clients. Do I want to waste time doing this? No, but I'm forced to because an upstream egghead can't understand when a bug report is filed for a legitimate reason, you don't dismiss the bug report, you at least test the package for a problem. I could be doing lower end maintenance on systems that's easy to do and let's our department not worry about a package going derpy levels of stupid on a 7 layer shit cake, but here we are.

And yes, I have dealt with Ubuntu people before, same as the Fedora people and the SuSE people, and they're just about as useless as bilge water in a boat. The age old, it's not our problem, excuse runs itself thin a lot. Mainly why our office no longer uses all three of them in any capacity and went to ArtixLinux recently because we can control more, and keep the stupid stuff out.

As far as anything else, let me make it clear again. Bad software is bad software, even if it's disguised as new, hip, and cool. We've all seen where it all went, numerous times over, and honestly, it needs to just stop and these people need to be ran out of FOSS. UNIX needs to come back together and have a cohesive FOSS ecosystem that works regardless of underlying OS and kernel. But no we have too many showboaters who want to say only GNU/Linux and doing stuff the stupid way matters more than the sane and logical way, because the stupid way is new, hip, and cool and hasn't been done before. X11 didn't need to be deprecated. It was working just fine, but no we magically needed eyecandy crap like HDR, but no. Instead of maintaining X11 properly, FreeDesktops decided that some new fangled incomplete crapware meant for a cellphone was better suited for a desktop system that still after 15+ years is nowhere near useable on rhe scale of what it still can not replace. 15+ years, but excuses and only excuses as to why basic functionality is non-existent. Is this what the FOSS Ecosystem needs? Non-functional software scattered everywhere with broken features that turns UNIX into a fucking joke? You think people will stick around for wayland? No. They're going to go back to Windows and write of GNU/Linux and FOSS as a joke. They won't take it seriously, and guess what? Kiss any hope for UNIX and FOSS to be taken seriously bye bye.

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 26, 2026

The problem with the wayland developers, not application developers, is you have too much political activism disguised as revolutionary development. Wayland, GNOME, FreeDesktops, Red Hat... We've all seen their posts on every social media platform and the aftermath of their actions. The blind hatred of establishment and practice to replace it with whims and the fad of the day. No regard for thoroughness, stability or cleanliness.

opensource is political whether you like it or not.

So far so good: opensource is political, and limitations imposed or avoided by infrastructure are political choices -- within the limit of technical viability.

if it is better than the current option, everybody will migrate to it.

Sadly this is not how it works with infrastructure.

There is NO stability.

Yet there are systems that keep working for decades. Fortran code from the 80s still works (and lives at the core of SciPy). And there are other systems that break your setup every year.

Which system you create has real consequences. If your system breaks people’s setup every year, you teach dependence and shallow skills.

That’s also a political statement: it establishes a hierarchy between the people who can build and spread something that breaks other systems and people who have their systems broken and have to adapt or walk away.

So, honestly, you don't matter in this decision

So that’s the political stance you take: some people don’t matter?

Wrote directly by one of those woke leftists you seem to hate.

How is it leftist to decide that some people don’t matter?

Hierarchy between people is a right-wing concept: "we matter, you don’t". And right-wing anger usually comes from "the wrong ones are at the top". But there should not be a top in the first place.

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 26, 2026

another troll from the KDEdiots barges in, pukls out their soapbox, geabs a bullhorn, and wants to be heard like anyone cares.

I never have claimed to be working on much at all here genius. Why? Maybe because I actually have a job and real life that I don't get to go out on a George Soros funded protest while I spend my non-protesting hours at Starbucks with a duct taped together Thinkpad blogging about how I hate people who aren't like me because their not some color of the rainbow fruit loop.

That’s purely a horrible take full of lies and slander.

Bad software is bad software, even if it's disguised as new, hip, and cool. We've all seen where it all went, numerous times over, and honestly, it needs to just stop

I fully agree with that, but …

and these people need to be ran out of FOSS.

… this is just horrible.

And it’s pretty ironic, because you’re the one who’s currently being run out of FOSS and instead of seeing "running people out of FOSS" as the general problem it is, you just state that other people than you need to be ran out.

@reaperx7
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another troll from the KDEdiots barges in, pukls out their soapbox, geabs a bullhorn, and wants to be heard like anyone cares.
I never have claimed to be working on much at all here genius. Why? Maybe because I actually have a job and real life that I don't get to go out on a George Soros funded protest while I spend my non-protesting hours at Starbucks with a duct taped together Thinkpad blogging about how I hate people who aren't like me because their not some color of the rainbow fruit loop.

That’s purely a horrible take full of lies and slander.

Bad software is bad software, even if it's disguised as new, hip, and cool. We've all seen where it all went, numerous times over, and honestly, it needs to just stop

I fully agree with that, but …

and these people need to be ran out of FOSS.

… this is just horrible.

And it’s pretty ironic, because you’re the one who’s currently being run out of FOSS and instead of seeing "running people out of FOSS" as the general problem it is, you just state that other people than you need to be ran out.

The reasons why need to be ran out is clear enough.

  1. We need a more uniform system to survive Microsoft. This shouldn't be a debate. This means functionality has to be a 1-to-1 feature offering without question and compromise. This is why we were keeping people in rhe beginning. 24H2, one of the biggest problematic Windows version updates, forced a migration. The end of life support from Windows 11 triggered more also. At this time wayland was not being forced down everyone's throats. Window managers that used both X11 and wayland still offered both and functionality with KDE-Plasma X11 was the same as Windows 10/11. At the time, GNU/Linux on many platform usage surveys shot as high as 4%, and this didn't include SteamDeck. Functionality with KDE, GNOME, Xfce, Cinnamon, etc. was all uniform against Windows. Everything worked.

  2. After wayland was then ironized into the mix, and surprisingly 25H2 arrived for Windows 11 fixing everything 24H2 broke, people started noticing wayland only desktops didn't exactly work the same. Stuff was not working like before. Stuff broke. Stuff had no function. There was little to no explanation why, and guess what people did. They wanted familiar back. People went back to Windows 11 25H2 and usage survey results dropped back below 2%. People aren't going to stay on a system that is not going to work the same or have functionality. They also aren't going to stay when they download a package, install it, and regardless of medium used, the package they need is broken. It wasn't broken on Windows, but it's broken on GNU/Linux, probably Ubuntu if I had to guess with their massively messy Snaps. The ones who probably stayed were the ones who probably didn't use wayland desktops or system with snaps, flatpaks, etc. as the only medium of package delivery. But a whole 2% of usage rates that was fought for hard by GNU/Linux, evaporated due to bad choices and even then forced bad choices.

  3. This why we will never attain the fabled and sought after Year of the Linux/UNIX/FOSS Desktop, however you want to look at it. It's not coming. It won't come because of how broken the design is. You don't attain success, and keep success with non-uniformity, non-cohesiveness, and non-standardization of anything. You can offer the gamescope compositor able to render games perfectly, a kernel with 45 million lines of code able to support any hardware possible, the fastest OpenGL and Vulkan drivers, the best sound server, fast networking, but if... If the user interface can not do the same job, as the competition, and people coming to can't get stuff to work. They will go back to Windows each and every time, and they will not be back. They will not come back. If a trend towards broken-ness as a norm is the norm, then GNU/Linux will be seen as a joke. It will not be taken seriously. It doesn't matter what servers, render farms, A.I. infrastructure, or what YouTube personality flashes GNU/Linux and touts it. People will not return or go back. We need the common ordinary Joe and Sally users to survive Windows. We need uniformity, cohesiveness, and standardization of one system to survive and thrive, the user interface, and we can't get that because everyone wants to be offended by everything and anything and then behave with a holier than thou attitude when called out on it.

GNU/Linux threw away the largest growth it ever had, all because of wanting something new that wasn't ready. This was a bad decision, a stupid decision, and the worst decision the claimed alternative platform to Windows could ever make, and it shows. Lolk at the breakage reports everywhere. Don't dismiss them. These are former Windows users looking for answers and when they won't get them, guess what's going to happen. They go back. And our usage rate drops to 1% then 0%.

@ArneBab
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ArneBab commented Apr 27, 2026

1. We need a more uniform system to survive Microsoft. 

Wayland fans will tell you that that’s the reason why Gnome and KDE have to stop supporting X11. As systemd fans said about not supporting BSDs and the Hurd. “remove the pointless differences between distros” was the phrase.

I don’t think it wise to call for that.

2. After wayland was then ironized into the mix, and surprisingly 25H2 arrived for Windows 11 fixing everything 24H2 broke, people started noticing wayland only desktops didn't exactly work the same. Stuff was not working like before. Stuff broke. Stuff had no function. There was little to no explanation why, and guess what people did.

Yes, adopting Wayland as default was a strategic mistake based on false promises and the false premise that getting 95% of tools working suffices to get a working system.

But a whole 2% of usage rates that was fought for hard by GNU/Linux, evaporated due to bad choices and even then forced bad choices.

I’ve been keeping statistics about GNU/Linux usage for 18 years now, and especially if you look at the numbers in Germany you’ll see a pattern that indicates sabotage. Or mistakes.

3. This why we will never attain the fabled and sought after Year of the Linux/UNIX/FOSS Desktop

If you again look at the usage statistics, you’ll see that GNU/Linux has been growing super-linearly for 18 years now, so it’s rather that almost every year since 2008 was a year of the Linux desktop.

What do you think why Microsoft is fighting so hard against it?

We need uniformity, cohesiveness, and standardization of one system to survive and thrive, the user interface

I’ll play devils advocate here: so we need Systemd and Wayland and KDE and Linux only (no BSDs, only one graphic card, no old hardware). If you think that users are offended by non-uniformity and expect others to obey to that in advance, then the Wayland path is exactly the right one.

I hope I don’t have to spell it out, but for clarities sake: I very much disagree with this claim of yours.

GNU/Linux threw away the largest growth it ever had, all because of wanting something new that wasn't ready. This was a bad decision, a stupid decision

Agreed.

and the worst decision the claimed alternative platform to Windows could ever make,

You’re lacking fantasy: there could be far worse decisions.

and it shows. Look at the breakage reports everywhere. Don't dismiss them.

Agreed.

These are former Windows users looking for answers and when they won't get them, guess what's going to happen. They go back. And our usage rate drops to 1% then 0%.

I don’t think that this is true, but it’s debatable. As you can see in the usage data, it’s likely that many do come back a few years later.

@reaperx7
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Many do come back to retry, but the problem is the same. And whenthey run across the "its still not working", they leave a second time, and most of the time, that's their last time.

Systemd, wayland, KDE, and Linux only is a bad choice.

Systemd is too wasteful of resources. Alternatives like dinit and OpenRC do the same work for less. We need less resources wasted in GNU/Linux.

Wayland is just not going to be fixed and they developers seem to just not care. They've had 15 years and basic core functions are overlooked and ignored. X11 has its flaws, but I'd have have a system that works flawlessly and has acceptable flaws, than a flawed system that has tries to achieve perfection. If this is what is to replace X11, then honestly, replacing X11 just shouldn't be bothered with. Xlibre is doing what FreeDesktops refused to do.

KDE is a landmine of problems. I don't even want to go into the mess they've made of their own ecosystem. Xfce is a far saner choice, has better system resource usage, and doesn't try to be something other than a good UNIX UI. Familiarity is nice, but flashy eyecandy doesn't make the system work better.

Linux only is a worse choice. Yes we have a dozen or so UNIX-like kernelspaces and the FOSS userland to sit on top of them. The kernelspace should be interchangeable to a degree.

@Roadhog360
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Roadhog360 commented Apr 30, 2026

image Well, as if the lack of an xcomposite alternative wasn't annoying enough, I think this fucking thing was the last straw to go back to x11 full-time instead, was this stupid pop-up. I recently got the Steam Controller (2015) and got this popup when I touched the controller, because Steam gives the controller a desktop layout to use it as a PC remote -- one use case I had for the controller. I clicked allow thinking that'd solve it, but boy was I wrong. 30 minutes later, it asks AGAIN. I go into my permissions settings in KDE and tick steam to allow it to always control the PC without asking, and yet, it kept fucking asking.

Couldn't been solved with an "Always allow" tickbox in this prompt but idk, probably security paranoia made them opt to not including one. Maybe it keeps asking because the permission popup isn't actually from Steam itself but from a sub process that Wayland doesn't recognize as "steam"? Who the fuck knows, because just like the damn screen capture portals, IT DOESN'T FUCKING TELL YOU WHAT IS ASKING. So if a bad actor secretly put this popup in a way it'd appear another application would present it, nobody would be any the wiser just like with screen capture portals, defeating the thinly veiled security theater reason they exist in the first place.

Back to x11, and when KDE drops x11 I'll just pray SonicDE is still in development or that Wayland has gotten over itself and stops bubble wrapping my PC with helicopter mom anti-features. I enjoyed the performance improvements and VRR support as well as proper multimonitor support all making gaming on Wayland much smoother, but it's just not worth the layers upon layers of nagware and constant re-granting permissions. I am all for better security but there are some usecases where there needs to be more flexibility, like making these control pop-ups show more information and having always allow actually work. And the screen capture portals are honestly a good idea on paper; but they don't work for everything and some applications just need a way to step around it and capture things in a similar way they could on x11. I just want to keep using my PC the way I want to and would be able to before, without compromises. I don't think that's a big ask.

P.S. at this point I fully expect this comment to get drowned out with people insulting x11 users just like other comments in this thread like mine pointing out real usability issues.

@reaperx7
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image Well, as if the lack of an xcomposite alternative wasn't annoying enough, I think this fucking thing was the last straw to go back to x11 full-time instead, was this stupid pop-up. I recently got the Steam Controller (2015) and got this popup when I touched the controller, because Steam gives the controller a desktop layout to use it as a PC remote -- one use case I had for the controller. I clicked allow thinking that'd solve it, but boy was I wrong. 30 minutes later, it asks AGAIN. I go into my permissions settings in KDE and tick steam to allow it to always control the PC without asking, and yet, it kept fucking asking.
Couldn't been solved with an "Always allow" tickbox in this prompt but idk, probably security paranoia made them opt to not including one. Maybe it keeps asking because the permission popup isn't actually from Steam itself but from a sub process that Wayland doesn't recognize as "steam"? Who the fuck knows, because just like the damn screen capture portals, IT DOESN'T FUCKING TELL YOU WHAT IS ASKING. So if a bad actor secretly put this popup in a way it'd appear another application would present it, nobody would be any the wiser just like with screen capture portals, defeating the thinly veiled security theater reason they exist in the first place.

Back to x11, and when KDE drops x11 I'll just pray SonicDE is still in development or that Wayland has gotten over itself and stops bubble wrapping my PC with helicopter mom anti-features. I enjoyed the performance improvements and VRR support as well as proper multimonitor support all making gaming on Wayland much smoother, but it's just not worth the layers upon layers of nagware and constant re-granting permissions. I am all for better security but there are some usecases where there needs to be more flexibility, like making these control pop-ups show more information and having always allow actually work. And the screen capture portals are honestly a good idea on paper; but they don't work for everything and some applications just need a way to step around it and capture things in a similar way they could on x11. I just want to keep using my PC the way I want to and would be able to before, without compromises. I don't think that's a big ask.

P.S. at this point I fully expect this comment to get drowned out with people insulting x11 users just like other comments in this thread like mine pointing out real usability issues.

No... you make a great point. This is Windows Vista all over again with the nagware. Permission this, permission that. Point, click, and it's back again later.

On Windows, yeah I understand that "run as Administrator" means giving an application access to resources it needs and some games are just like this.

But for GNU/Linux, this is counterproductive. You give it a permission, but it keeps asking because it doesn't know what do do with it because the ability to store a session properly in the session manager database doesn't exist. So you assign it a permanent permission, but it fails to register. Well that's great. Especially because of how big Steam is, having this to clear every hour would be madness for a gamer or even livestreaming. I see why Steam promotes Gamescope as their compositor, but why should you, me, or anyone have to default to Gamescope when KDE itself should be handling it? A compositor on top of a compositor? Isn't that wasting resources?

As far as the "security" claim. Nagware isn't security. It's the gross opposite of security. Proper security should register things properly to have a database to work from. Nagware is NOT, nor has ever been, security.

@Roadhog360
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Nagware is NOT, nor has ever been, security.

I agree, I still fully maintain that Wayland's security initiative is rubbish. It feels like nothing more than security theater and the only thing being secured is me out of my own workflow.

@Roadhog360
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I should clarify that I actually want to prefer Wayland over X11. For me, X11 feels incomplete and buggy. And without variable refresh rate support and worse gaming performance, games feel worse to play. But I have to use X11 just because when it does work, it's much smoother of a user experience overall, despite the problems.

Hell, when I wrote my comment earlier, even though X11 doesn't support HDR for some reason, it keeps turning HDR on my second monitor and deep frying the whole image because X11 doesn't know what to do with it.

I want to reach out to the crowd defending Wayland by saying I don't like X11. I never have. I agree that we need a better alternative and Wayland is not that better alternative. Wayland is more stable and it's clear that the developers writing it are more skilled at writing stable software. But with all this nag aware and bubble wrapping, they need to get the fuck over themselves. They aren't saving anyone, they aren't making anything more secured and they aren't helping. They ruin what's almost a near-perfect replacement for X11 with these needless restrictions.

I've heard some say that Wayland is not a replacement for X11 and that I shouldn't expect it to be. But if it's not a replacement, then you are just going to hit issues like this time and time again. It's being treated as a replacement for X11, whether it actually is or not. Wayland's fatal flaw is that it's leaving these gaps and providing no way to enable them again with configuration. It's their way or the highway.

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